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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Bones on October 3, 1999, at 13:20:22
More advice sought my cyberfriends.
If any of you are aquainted with my previous messages, you will know that I suffer from an anxiety disorder - OCD in it's worst form. Social anxiety in its every prevailing, and most intrusive form.
I've continued a regiment of two weeks on ... two weeks off of medication for the past year. I am currently off. Feeling really good. I'm seeing the psych. doctor this Friday to discuss meds. He feels very strongly that I should be on meds. (I seem to find that anyone with OCD is treated this way. The illness is treated with kid gloves.) Anyway - my OCD I seem to be handling just fine ... yes the obsessive thoughts are darting back and forth more than usual, but I find without meds. I have better cognitive skills (thought tricks) to deal with them.
Anyway --- the reason I keep going back on medication is because of the social anxiety - specifically - I blush, blush beet red - a lot - when I'm not on meds. Particularly around authority figures. (I work as an Executive Secretary ... so the blushing is pretty much constant.)
Does anyone have any recommendations?? Any medication recommendations to stop blushing?? I tried a beta blocker a year ago - and found that they made me very, very tired. Has anyone tried beta blockers - does the tiredness subside (however I also felt depressed when I was on them.
I try to "figure out" this blushing thing. Why is it so difficult for me to deal with?? Some people think blushing is kind of charming. ("Yeah right!!") I think it makes me look deficient, shy, lacking in self-confidence. (Which of course I am.) It makes me look like I have a handicap. (Which of course I DO.) Sometimes I think it boils down to the issue of "pride". I do have a handicap. Why can't I accept it? (Actually I do accept it, I can't deal with the labelling the rejection from others. (I guess it's nice to be able to hide it.) But what if I was physically handicapped?? They can't hide it can they? And they are evaluated differently from the rest of us. Has anyone read Jean Vanier's books. He addresses this question quite profoundly, summarizing that we are all "handicapped". And that handicapped people because of this societal rejection, their vulnerabilty have a lot to teach us. I can appreciate what Vanier says; it touches me deeply. But what place do I have to be before I can become one of "the handicapped".
I know I'm rambling. Any comments?
Posted by dove on October 4, 1999, at 8:42:29
In reply to Red Face - YIKES!!, posted by Bones on October 3, 1999, at 13:20:22
I know the beta-blocker's do have the unfortunate side-effect of causing depression or worsening of pre-existing, so that is not always an appropriate choice. My daughter took Paxil, which truly took away ALL social anxiety. Alas, it threw her into a massive mania but that doesn't mean it would do the same for you. I don't have any personal experience with the treatment of social anxiety (just my daughter's) so I don't have a whole lot to add. Just the Paxil can really make a difference and irriterate your finding with the beta-blockers causing fatigue and depression.
Good Luck :-)
dove~
Posted by Sean on October 4, 1999, at 11:55:15
In reply to Red Face - YIKES!!, posted by Bones on October 3, 1999, at 13:20:22
> More advice sought my cyberfriends.
>
> If any of you are aquainted with my previous messages, you will know that I suffer from an anxiety disorder - OCD in it's worst form. Social anxiety in its every prevailing, and most intrusive form.
>
> I've continued a regiment of two weeks on ... two weeks off of medication for the past year. I am currently off. Feeling really good. I'm seeing the psych. doctor this Friday to discuss meds. He feels very strongly that I should be on meds. (I seem to find that anyone with OCD is treated this way. The illness is treated with kid gloves.) Anyway - my OCD I seem to be handling just fine ... yes the obsessive thoughts are darting back and forth more than usual, but I find without meds. I have better cognitive skills (thought tricks) to deal with them.
>
> Anyway --- the reason I keep going back on medication is because of the social anxiety - specifically - I blush, blush beet red - a lot - when I'm not on meds. Particularly around authority figures. (I work as an Executive Secretary ... so the blushing is pretty much constant.)
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations?? Any medication recommendations to stop blushing?? I tried a beta blocker a year ago - and found that they made me very, very tired. Has anyone tried beta blockers - does the tiredness subside (however I also felt depressed when I was on them.
>
> I try to "figure out" this blushing thing. Why is it so difficult for me to deal with?? Some people think blushing is kind of charming. ("Yeah right!!") I think it makes me look deficient, shy, lacking in self-confidence. (Which of course I am.) It makes me look like I have a handicap. (Which of course I DO.) Sometimes I think it boils down to the issue of "pride". I do have a handicap. Why can't I accept it? (Actually I do accept it, I can't deal with the labelling the rejection from others. (I guess it's nice to be able to hide it.) But what if I was physically handicapped?? They can't hide it can they? And they are evaluated differently from the rest of us. Has anyone read Jean Vanier's books. He addresses this question quite profoundly, summarizing that we are all "handicapped". And that handicapped people because of this societal rejection, their vulnerabilty have a lot to teach us. I can appreciate what Vanier says; it touches me deeply. But what place do I have to be before I can become one of "the handicapped".
>
> I know I'm rambling. Any comments?I have a similar thing with my ears, but it really
isn't a handicap for me.My ex-girlfriend had a very similar set of symptoms.
She was terrified of speaking in front of people,
interviews, bosses, etc.. and had OCD to the extent
where she would straighten and "count" all the
time. Since she was a little girl she had this
ritual of "starting over" which after a painful
or anxious event she would begin the world anew
and try to control everything by counting. It
sounds almost cute (in a sad way) to imagine her
doing this as a child, but being close to her
as an adult was intense.ANYWAY, she also goes on and off Prozac. She says
that after a few weeks she gets this urge to just
stop the stuff. Similar to you, her doc is always
trying to get her to stay on it. But there is
something "gross" about how SSRIs make some people
feel. I've felt this on Zoloft: it is hard to
explain.As for the blushing, I guess my advice is to work
with a therapist and the meds with situations
that cause this reaction. My gut feeling is that
you need to somehow go through these uncomfortable
experiences a number of times until they become
almost boring and you feel safe in them. That is,
the percieved threat to your being is replaced
with experiences of safety. Meds can help train
your brain I think.But I'm just rambling! Keep us posted.
Sean.
Posted by Noa on October 4, 1999, at 18:39:33
In reply to Re: Red Face - YIKES!!, posted by Sean on October 4, 1999, at 11:55:15
I have this feeling that going on and off meds doesn't help, might make things worse.
Also, I think behavioral therapy with an anxiety specialist might help. It really is a form of education, to learn how to work with your body to feel more in control.
Posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 0:36:26
In reply to Re: Red Face - YIKES!!, posted by Sean on October 4, 1999, at 11:55:15
Geez, does this sound familiar ...
I used to blush whenever *any* sort of attention came my way. Being pretty pale (and proud of it, too), I'd go through all sorts of shades -- scarlet, maroon, cardinal, whatever. To make matters worse, all through my teens and twenties I always seemed to be blessed with associates -- strangely enough, including some normally "good" friends in that second decade -- who as soon as they noticed the slightest tinge of crimson would do their best (worst) to make me blush even more. They'd even comment on the progress the shade was making across my cheeks, into my forehead, the tips of my ears, down my neck and back ... which all just mortify me all the more, to their delight. None of them seemed to understand that all that blushing wasn't the least bit "cute" for me.
I don't know where to draw the line between "painfully shy" and "social anxiety", or which side of the line I've been on. All I knew was that it was a feedback loop. The more I thought about it, the worse it got, etc. ad infinitum ad nauseum.
So, one day I decided not to be embarassed anymore.
Yeah, it's just as easy as it sounds. 8^P
I wasn't getting any therapy at the time, and this was before I got any training as any sort of psychologist, so I'm a bit suprised that it did work for me eventually. I guess it was a two-pronged approach: one being practiced detachment, the other being desensitization (or, maybe, over stimulation).
I started seeking out those situations that would make me blush. One big for instance is that I became a teacher. Up in front of 150 kids every single day. I worked these situations for all they were worth -- refusing to believe I was blushing out of shame or lack of confidence, but rather as some misinformed natural reaction.
Of course, I did my undergrad at the University of Michigan, so I had a lot of arrogance instilled into me over those years. Arrogance helps. You should practice it.
The detachment was just what I mentioned above. I had to chant it constantly -- "I'm not embarrassed", "There's no need to be ashamed", anything to try to interrupt that cascade.
It worked well enough in the end. I still blush in some public settings; certainly for anything remotely resembling human courtship rituals, but also whenever I'm giving a talk ... and after 15 years of teaching and lecturing, I think I've become a fairly well-accomplished public speaker. The things is, tho, that I managed to break the chain. I hardly feel the blush anymore.
See? It *is* all just willpower after all. You just gotta suck it up, right? (Hey! I have an excuse -- these 40 lbs Zoloft gave me, I can't suck that much in). That's my advice, tho -- find a way to break the feedback loop.
Bob
Posted by Noa on October 6, 1999, at 21:44:07
In reply to Re: Red Face - YIKES!!, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 0:36:26
Blushing's not my thing, but I get the shaky voice and lightheadedness when speaking in front of a group. Back in college I was the silent student in class who only spoke when called on. I have grown to be quite vocal in work situations, and as long as the speaking is just your ordinary meeting discussion, I am ok. But as soon as all eyes are on me, the "speaker", ie giving a presentation, etc., I get the shaky voice, light head, and have even dissociated a bit. Once in graduate school, when giving a presentation, I put the wrong transparency on the overhead projector, which flustered me, so that I lost my place in my note cards. I looked down at the card, and even tho I could read it, I had no idea what it meant, it was like a foreign language. I felt like I had no idea what I was doing, had no idea what I was doing there standing in front of the class, had no idea where I was, and had no idea who I was. It was probably all of two seconds or so, but it felt like minutes.
With the shaky voice, once it starts to shake, it has a way of increasing exponentially, because I become aware of the shaky voice, which makes me more anxious. I get fearful of being inarticulate, which is worse on antidepressants, because I get bad word retreival problems.
Posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 23:12:32
In reply to Re: Red Face - YIKES!!, posted by Noa on October 6, 1999, at 21:44:07
> With the shaky voice, once it starts to shake, it has a way of increasing exponentially, because I become aware of the shaky voice, which makes me more anxious. I get fearful of being inarticulate, which is worse on antidepressants, because I get bad word retreival problems.
That's just what the blush would do for me. If that worked on my voice like it did on my cheeks, I don't know if I ever would have been able to step into my "speaker's role" that I take on. I don't do well with notes, so I usually make sure I know my stuff cold, create a general outline, then speak extemporaneously within that outline. I have gotten flustered a few times, but somehow I developed a rather good coping strategy -- pause (that is, shut up!), ask if there are any questions at this point, do a scan of the room looking over everyone's heads to the back wall, and taking some deep breaths. It's kinda like popping a circuit breaker, then turning it off to cool down before your flip it back on.
Bob
Posted by Bones on October 7, 1999, at 18:41:17
In reply to Re: Red Face - YIKES!!, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 0:36:26
Thank you all for your very wise help.
Yes Bob you are so right on when you say I've got to break the "feedback loop". Social anxiety is a confirmation that everything is NOT okay because of overexaggerated physical "reactions" in social situations.
I usually only blush around authority figures. Today I continued, and continued to blush hugely red in front of my one very good looking, sexually attractive boss. (Hmmm ... any connection there?? And yes I think I've figured out, BY JOVE, that there is some connections between these male authority figures and my FATHER. Perhaps an unresolved Oedipal complex. It would make perfect sense if you knew my mum/dad's dynamics. But you'll have to trust me here - we won't go there.
Anyway I had a very good day - off of meds. right now, hence the return of the blushing. However, my boss looked at me like - WHAT IS GOING ON?? Blushing (especially after working with him for 2 years with relatively no blushing) does indeed create confusing signals. Anyway, I did as I had been advised by a behavioral therapist ... continued to converse even though my face was very, very red, let's see - a lovely "candyapple" sportscar red. (Like you Bob, I am blessed with a lovely creamy pale complexion.) Pretended nothing was wrong. But it still doesn't work. As a matter of fact the symptoms continue and continue to duplicate themselves. I anticipate his footsteps and flush deep red, etc. etc. etc. Tomorrow I am seeing my psych. dr., (after being off meds for 2 weeks). We'll see whatever he can prescribe now. It's a rollercoaster. I don't like SSRI's. Don't quite know where to go from here.
Cyberfriends thanks for your wonderful strategies and personal tips.
On an intersting side note: (I won't take much longer) In response to Bob's query about the workplace and disclosure about mental disabilities. I was very tempted today to just go to my boss and say - Look, I thought you might be wondering why I keep blushing around you. I have this blushing "quirk" - I have a tendency to blush around authority figures. It's nothing that you have done. Etc. etc. I had my blushing problem with my sis. and she came up with this suggestion. (Which I had considered.) I didn't do it. (Actually my boss went off on a flying lesson before I had a chance to approach him.) I went home and told my husband about my day. He gave me a hug and told me I was his wonderful (regardless) Bones. Which was a very warm, touching gesture. God bless him. However, he vehemently opposed my approaching my boss. "DON'T DO THAT ... YOU"LL BE LABELLED!!"
Of course we've all reached that crossroad. To tell or not to tell. To risk being labelled, categorized. As someone so beautifully and eloquently stated in an earlier message ... we'll only be seen as the illness, not the entire amazing, wonderful, complex (and healthy) package. There is a huge risk. I think if personification is going to happen - progress for those with mental disablities. We have to speak out. Become one of the counted. But you see, I can still hide.
Must go to pick up my daughter from skating.
xxxooo
Posted by Janice on October 7, 1999, at 20:45:02
In reply to Re: Red Face - YIKES!!, posted by Bones on October 7, 1999, at 18:41:17
than others.
Hi bones, good to read your postings again. You sound good. I still miss Toronto.
okay, let's reign in that ADD and get back to the topic. Generally speaking this has been my experience with disclosing my mental disorders. I will tell some people about some of my disorders... the ADHD and my Seasonal Affective Disorder (notice that's not depression) seem to be especially acceptable. I will laugh at myself in front of them for my 'anxiety' and my 'over active imagination', or for being 'neurotic and highly strung'.
However, I would never mention (after having mistakenly done it a few times previously) my manic depression, my eating disorder, my obsessive compulsive disorder. These illnesses, for me anyway, do not get a good reception. When I have ever mentioned them to anyone, that's it, I'm labelled, I'm crazy. Everything I say is suspect. Janice.
ps i do really have all these disorders, but honest, I'm not crazy.
ps and when I meet a man, he finds out about them one at a time, and only when he absolutely has to. For example, if i'm flying on an airplane, I'll let him know about 'my fear of flying'. Or if someone tries to plop a great big steak on my plate, he finds out about my eating disorder. Usually he is hooked before I get 2 disorders out. I am feeling very silly tonight, please excuse me.
Posted by Bones on October 8, 1999, at 14:14:12
In reply to Some Mental Illnesses are more acceptable .., posted by Janice on October 7, 1999, at 20:45:02
Janice: Thanks for the good laugh!! Of course I understand exactly what you mean about "getting your hooks in" ... you seem like a kind and generous person.
Have a great Thanksgiving weekend. And I've been meaning to touch bases with you about Dr. Julie Righter. I've been attending her group therapy sessions. Very interesting. Not QUITE sure that it's where my best work should be done. I find the whole process very intersting. I guess I'm used to a support group "dynamic". The first session, I found the therapists, so very blunt, AND THEY WOULDN'T LET ME TALK/ ASK QUESTIONS / MAKE SYMPATHIC NOISES, when someone was speaking/revealing/sharing. And they were so blunt, almost rude. I began to observe/understand the benefit.
Anyway, wanted to share with you.
Take care.
Posted by Janice on October 8, 1999, at 21:10:34
In reply to Re: Some Mental Illnesses are more acceptable .., posted by Bones on October 8, 1999, at 14:14:12
> Janice: Thanks for the good laugh!! Of course I understand exactly what you mean about "getting your hooks in" ... you seem like a kind and generous person.
>
> Have a great Thanksgiving weekend. And I've been meaning to touch bases with you about Dr. Julie Righter. I've been attending her group therapy sessions. Very interesting. Not QUITE sure that it's where my best work should be done. I find the whole process very intersting. I guess I'm used to a support group "dynamic". The first session, I found the therapists, so very blunt, AND THEY WOULDN'T LET ME TALK/ ASK QUESTIONS / MAKE SYMPATHIC NOISES, when someone was speaking/revealing/sharing. And they were so blunt, almost rude. I began to observe/understand the benefit.
>
> Anyway, wanted to share with you.
>
> Take care.Hi Bones,
I'm glad you called her. She is quite the power house! She wanted me to join the group therapy, but as I said it was just to far for me to travel. I remember reading the rules (wasn't it more like a book?) for the group therapy. I wonder if group therapy is a common way to treat people with social anxiety. That blunt/rudeness is something they could only get away with in Toronto. Do you know what the purpose of bluntness is about?
Bones, you too, have a great Thanksgiving week-end, and keep me in touch with how the therapy's going. Janice.
Posted by Jane (janey girl) on October 10, 1999, at 20:20:16
In reply to Re: Some Mental Illnesses are more acceptable .., posted by Janice on October 8, 1999, at 21:10:34
Bones,
I still blush, or I get these red, splotchy spots
on my neck and chest when I'm nervous or anxious.
I feel that "flush." Usually, I more concerned
about the anxiety going on than the flush/blush
thing.I may be WWAAAAAYYYYYY off base here, but... here's
an idea. In addition to my writing and designing
and now pursuit of a nursing degree, I am also an
actress here in town. When I first got involved
with acting and the "theatre crowd" more than 20
years ago, I blushed quite frequently and was
embarrassed by it, and felt crippled by it.Auditions? YIKES! I looked like a tomato reading
for a great lady part, and my voice? Geez Louise,
it went up into the rafters it was so high... Yeah,
and all of that embarrassed me even more. But
after time, hanging around those people, I realized
I had permission to act the fool and be nutty and funny
and crazy and use funny accents. They all did
the same thing.There I was, around strangers and acting the fool,
and you know what? The blushing lessened considerably,
my voice settled down (although I had to make myself
very conscious of that for a while). I am now
cast for my voice; my blushing is a benefit in
some casting decisions, because sometimes director
wants a more genteel portrayal, and they see my
now occasional blushing as a benefit, and less
"harsh."Maybe consider hanging out in community theatre
for a while. You don't have to worry about acting,
just be around the people. Work with costumes or
lights or props. The atmosphere might help you
out somewhat, and there's an interesting camaraderie
amoung theatre folks.Just an idea.
Best to you,
jane
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