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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 3:34:50
In reply to Re: Shall we agree to differ?, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 10:19:06
> I just hope that you understand and respect why we feel differently.
......This is a general comment about anybody who asks to be understood (NOT directly at you, Dinah!!). I believe it is not possible in most instances to understand how someone feels unless we feel the same way.
......However, I DO believe it is possible, and desirable, to ACCEPT that someone feels a certain way. So often, there seems to be upsets and eruptions in real life because someone doesn't understand how we feel, we feel misunderstood, don't see how someone can't see our point of view as logical and reasonable.
........Seems the best we can offer each other is acceptance. I accept that there are people in this thread who feel one way about redneck jokes, and some who feel another way. I'm more inclined to agree with one side than the other. However, I can respect everyone's right to their own opinion.
Shar
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 3:42:15
In reply to More semantics stuff, posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 3:34:50
Hey, that's fine. It's actually what I meant, anyway.
(Although, honestly, there are very few topics on which reasonable people disagree that I don't *understand* both sides of the issue. I may not agree, but I understand.)
Posted by IsoM on February 2, 2003, at 4:00:27
In reply to Re: More semantics stuff » shar, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 3:42:15
I didn't even know rednecks existed. I leave for a couple of days & come back & see this long thread over my original post. Whooaa! So I start reading through it & find these definitions of rednecks.
Okay, first, I live in Canada near the very cosmopolitan city of Vancouver - filled with all sorts of racial & ethnic types - a wonderful variety. You could find restaurants serving any sort of food from around the world there. But the furthest south I've been is Seattle & that was many, many years ago.
I figured rednecks were simply a caricature about hillbilly type people that didn't exist, or so I thought...
Sheeze, folks, I didn't know there really were people like that! Still find it hard to believe. I thought it was a joke like portraying Canadians as people living in igloos with 10 months of winter, all riding sleds with teams of huskies - something that's funny because it isn't like that.I still think my humour piece was funny, & I have trouble believing anyone would fit those descriptions. No one acts in that crude a manner. At least, I sure hope not.
Posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 4:02:51
In reply to Re: More semantics stuff » shar, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 3:42:15
> (Although, honestly, there are very few topics on which reasonable people disagree that I don't *understand* both sides of the issue. I may not agree, but I understand.)
..........So, do you understand why I thought the redneck joke was funny?
........And, really, I wanted my post to cover situations in which people (maybe unreasonable people) want to be understood, in a quite specific way. That is, I can understand your reaction to jokes that negatively target socially disadvantaged groups--in a global way, I can understand it, and I am offended by blatantly racist and sexist humor. However, the devil is in the details. The couple arguing about sex or money (two common topics) aren't likely to find peace if each one first needs to understand the other's point of view.
Or, maybe that's just my bizarre way of thinking about things. In my household, there is a rule that dogs don't get people food (it's always been a rule of mine) unless it's mixed in with their dinner of dog food. I have my reasons for the rule, several good ones, IMO. My niece (who stayed with me a while) has a completely different opinion about dogs and people food. I suppose I understand her reasons (they are complete sentences, comprehensible), I just think they're wrong. So, I can fully accept that she believes that, but I don't really "understand" how she can come to that conclusion given all the data to the contrary. In a way, I guess I read into what you were saying that you wanted more than people to comprehend the sentences you were saying, but to "understand" your conclusions, in spite of the fact that they differ from the other's conclusions.
Shar
P.S. What the heck are you doing up so late!?
Posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 4:14:20
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 17:11:00
>I was simply pointing out that ALL jokes make fun of someone or something.
>whether he understood that that joke would be poking fun at someone..
Nikki, that's what I was trying to say, too, in a previous post. All jokes have a target, and, like you, I can't think of one that doesn't.
Shar
Posted by Tabitha on February 2, 2003, at 4:29:31
In reply to More semantics stuff, posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 3:34:50
'zactly, Shar, I wish we could all make accepting each other's feelings and reactions a goal here. I'm even more optimistic though, I think it's also possible to understand how someone feels, if they fill in a little background about how they interpret a situation, and some of their personal history that contributes to their reaction.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 19:42:11
Lou,
please try and give examples of a joke that DO NOT make fun of someone..
But, is it OK to make fun of people you deem to be able to handle it?? Such as Psychiatrists in your previous post??
Is this a case of double standards?? Where by it is ok to joke about those you think its ok to joke about, but not those who who you decide it is not OK to joke about.
Nikki
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:59:01
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by dreamerz on February 1, 2003, at 18:35:42
My point in saying about my area of where I live, is that it is deemed acceptable for them to bar me from a shop for being a white western women, and for them to push and abuse me in the street, as in this country, they are a minority. Could you imagine the fuss if I opened a shop that wouldn't allow muslims in it??
A group of muslim women (I presume they are muslim by their Burkas) meet each morning on the corner of my street. I say "excuse me" so I can get past as they block my way. They refuse to move, and look at me with utter contempt. This means actually having to cross the street to get past them (they collect up against a barrier across the road, so I can;t just walk round them).
In my corner shop, I have been pushed out of the queue by them, and told I should find a shop that deals with "my kind".
The shop next door to that (that ahs a wodnerful cheese selection, which I why I would like to shop there), I have actually been asked to leave the shop by one of the workers, as my presence was causing upset!!! Now, I'm not one for skimpy clothes.. I would have been wearing trousers and long sleeved top at the very least.Why should this be acceptable?? I love living in a multi cultural area, if only for the great variety of foods I can buy.. (there are other reasons of course).
If I complained about this, I would be classed as a racist. Thats what really annoys me.
Nikki
Posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 7:27:50
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » dreamerz, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:59:01
This is an incredible reaction when you take into account that Jeff Foxworthy has made millions off of redneck jokes.
I know rednecks..virtually all of them would have your joke on their refrigerator door.Thank you,
Phil
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
The question at hand here is about the posting of "ethnic" jokes as a response to the post about "rednecks".
If we look at the following book title,[...The French Chef, by Sue Flay], there is humor in the title to some, [not ] because of [making fun of a person's {ethnicicity} or because the person belongs to a class of people or race or religion or national origin or handicap or sexual orientation etc...The person, Sue Flay, is [not] being ridiculed for being what they are, such as a person that has been labeled a "redneck". If we look at the following we could also see that a person is not being ridiculed for [being what they are].
One person asks another, "Why did the chicken cross the road, roll in a mud puddle, then cross the road again?"
The other person answers, "Because the chicken was a {dirty double- crosser.}
Now some people could think that was funny. And I have laughed at it myself. But the joke does not belittle people, or demean people or make fun of a peoples. I am not against telling a joke here. What I am against is the demeaning of a peoples by the venue of "joking" which is referred to as "ethnic" jokes. There is a differentiating body of factors that do make some jokes acceptable and some not. It is my beliefe that the overiding criteria to deem unacceptability is ;[Does it use language or expressions, innapropriatly toward a class or race of people, etc.., or expressions that demean a particular class of people?]. Dr bob just flagged the [...pizza ...olive...] post, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. I agree with him because it used an expression involving a class of people,inappropreatly, in this case by race.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 8:19:11
In reply to Lou's reply to NikkiT2's post » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
So correct me if I;m wrong...
You say it is NOT OK to make jokes based on someones ethnicity.
What about jokes based on someones sex??
Or sexual orientation??
Or religion?
Or occupation??
Or hair colour??
Or body shape??
Or driving ability??
The list is endless ( and please, this is a rhetorical question, no need to answer each point)
I am NOT saying any of this is right or wrong. What I am saying, is (and I will re-word this now), that any joke that contains a reference to a human, in any shape or form, is making fun of that person. Jokes about blonde women make fun of blonde women. Jokes about mother in laws make fun of mother in laws. Jokes about fat people make fun of fat people.
I do not believe that Oddipuss has never, ever, in his/her life, made a joke about someone in this way.If you can honestly, hand on heart, say you have NEVER told a joke about a human, in any form, you are a much better person than 99.999999% of the population of the world.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 8:22:25
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
You wrote about [...standards...]in referrence to acceptability or non-acceptability for posting humor here. If I was to make a page for the social board that addressed that , I would list the following criteria for OK or not OK:
The following are [not] OK:
A) Posts that use expressions of race or religion or nationl origin or sexual preferrence or handicap or gender etc. in an inappropriate manner.
B) Posts that demean, or ridicule a class or race etc.etc... of peoples.
C) other good or just causes to deem the post not[OK]
The following would be OK:
D)Posts that do not ridicule or demean peoples because of their ethnicisity or race, etc... even though the peoples may be mentioned.
When another poster here in the past wrote that W.C. Fields was asked, "Do you like children?" and his reply was, "It depends how they are cooked.". This is a good "test" example. The post ,IMHO, does not ridicule "children", even though "children" are used in the post.
But OTOH, if W.C. Fields was asked that question while he was visiting the ward in the Shriner's Burns Institute for children here in Cincinnati, then his reply would been "inappropriate".
Lou
Posted by syringachalet on February 2, 2003, at 8:41:00
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » NikkiT2, posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 4:14:20
I think that there isnt a soul among us that hasnt told what we considered in our social circles what we considered a very benign joke of some kind that might just happen to offend someone.(look at all the blonde jokes, the Pollock jokes or the Catholics priest jokes floating around...)
I thnk that being sensative to others is only part of solution. Knowing your audience and not taking everything so seriously and personally would probably help.
I have felt the rage and anger from some of the posters here over the past months. I cant help but think that someone,somewhere in their past has deeply hurt that person and some how they feel save to unleash those misdirected words at people who are just trying to be social and occasionally blow off a little too much.
But it is that same safety is shared by others that feel they can come here relax, joke about topics that we all see everyday and if we were truly honest, would be sometimes smiling inside ourselves.Perhaps if we all,myself included, 'lightened up' a little and tried to keep the really unkind comments to a minimum or to be shared in private, we could refocus on what I feel this board is all about....the lighter side of support groups/website that allow the posters to occasionally blow with control..in other words.. WITH DISCERTION.
Any major put down is cruel but knowing your audience and not being too sensative would probably help us all.. myself included.
syringachalet
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 8:47:53
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
Another critera for acceptability or not is to examine the post in the context of a mental-health forum.
There was just a post here that came from a book that addressed this and I think that it is great in describing this situation. But that was describing a different setting. Here, we are in a mental-health setting, each seeking "support" and education about our afflictions. So IMHO, the rules could be different here for posting the posts in question.
Someone posted here that these type of posts in question that involve peoples could be posted on their refridgerator. And that would be up to the individual [outside] of this forum. But would it be appropriate here on this forum? I do not think so, for ridicule and making fun of a class of peoples can be detrimental to the mental health of those peoples and ,possibly, others also.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 8:52:27
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by syringachalet on February 2, 2003, at 8:41:00
And thank you if you think I am overly sensitive. If that were the biggest problem the world faced, that people were overly concerned about hurting others, I can't imagine what a terrific world this would be.
On this thread there has been a tremendous negative reaction towards "sensitivity", as if that is a perfectly good characteristic to find unacceptable. I don't go around pointing out the characteristics of other people on this board, perhaps I'm just too "sensitive".
Oddipus, you were right. You were being put down, and I don't blame you if you leave. I think I'll take a break myself.
Dinah
Posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 8:58:48
In reply to Lou's reply to NikkiT2's post » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
I don't however have anything useful to add but I was feeling left out so I decided to to add my name to this thread too. :) :). Plus the thread seems to have become a little tame lately. Nothing like a good discussion to get the interest level up!
That's all this thread really is....isn't it? A REALLY good discussion!!!! I definitely can't make out anything about this thread that's particularly offensive....just a good debate between old friends really :) :).
I am Australian however so feel free to make lots of jokes at my expense. I promise I won't be offended as long as you don't hurt my feelings.
Lou, as an animal lover I was mortified at your chicken joke. I think chickens have suffered enough in their little cages laying eggs without having to be the butt of cruel jokes as well [Just Kidding :) :) ]
Phil, I was wondering when you were going to add your usual pearls of wisdom to the thread. How do you get away with the things you say without offending people. Please teach me:)
Ahh it's good to see my name up there with everyone elses!!!
Cheers everyone
bluedog
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 9:15:25
In reply to Is this thread finished yet?, posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 8:58:48
BD,
You wrote,[....that's all this thread is;....a really good discussion...]
I believe that this thread is [more] than just a good discussion for the issue is paramount to the mantal health of us here. For if it is allowed for posters to use the venue of "ethnic jokes" here, then I will not be able to post here unless I want to absorb the humiliation from the "ethnic" jokes, whether they be about me or others, for if they demean others, they also demean me also. That is why I object to these type of posts.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 9:30:00
In reply to Re: Is this thread finished yet? » bluedog, posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 9:15:25
I have sai, quite a few times, that I am not getting into an arguement or disucssion on whether x is OK or whether y is OK.
I, personally, did not get offended by this one, but then, I have no idea what or who a redneck is... But I can understand why others did get upset.
My only point.. My ONE point I was trying to make to you, is that jokes, in one way or another, are making fun of someone or something. Thats all... nothing more, nothing less.
The "lightbulb" jokes (how many xxx's does it take to change a lightbulb) may seem harmless, but they are making fun of who ever the xxx is.
I know you are concerned with ethnic jokes, but I was simply pointing out that it is much more wide ranging than just ethnicity.
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
In reply to Re: Being sensitive is not a sin, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 8:52:27
Why is it that the only person to object to genuine vitriol was Dr. Bob, while at leat a half dozen people chimed in with how bad it was to be overly sensitive, and the rest of you said nothing?
That's something I don't really understand. As I told Sharon, I understand both sides of most issues. But I really don't get this.
I want to stay here and be supportive to you all, but I have to be able to understand this in order to feel supportive towards you.
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:56:24
In reply to Re: Could you guys just answer one question?, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry.
Posted by syringachalet on February 2, 2003, at 10:12:18
In reply to Re: An apology to Dr. Bob and to Jay, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:56:24
Dinah,
You were Ok to just say how you feel. It really shouldnt have upset anyone here who cares and understands that being sensitive is fine. Its when people take everything posted here as if it is written specifically about them as an individual that emotions go on a rampage and people feel hurt and angry.
I value your ideas(you have had some pretty good ones by the way) and just wish that people could realize that we have posters here from every continent and culture posting here and what might not be a big deal where you live might be a VERY big deal elsewhere.
for me tolerance of diversity is my quest...
Take Care, Dinah.
syringachalet
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 10:14:35
In reply to Re: Could you guys just answer one question?, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
OK,. I can only answer for me.
I can understand why you were upset.. I truly can.. And I don;t think you were being over sensitive.
I was just too busy arguing that ethnicity is not the only thing to be upset about though.. that just about all jokes (those that contain a human) make fun of someone... And that, as such, all those jokes are hurtful in their own way.
I don;t think its about being sensitive or not.. maybe I simply didn;t get this one... being in the UK and all.
Nikki
Posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 10:32:48
In reply to Re: Being sensitive is not a sin, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 8:52:27
>
> Oddipus, you were right. You were being put down, and I don't blame you if you leave. I think I'll take a break myself.
>
> DinahDinah
I hope it's only a really short break (May I suggest 10 minutes or so)....not so long ago you were asking ME not to leave.......now it's my turn Hah hah.(revenge is sweet).
I really enjoy your posts Dinah, and Oddipusses posts and Iso's post and Jays's post and I can go on ad-nauseam adding names to this list.
You are very sensitive and sweet Dinah and that is a large part of of your charm (but I must add also a large part of your downfall because you are so sensitive you take on the pain of others so easily)...you really should stop doing that for your own sanity...I know you love everyone on this board and you feel pain whenever ANYONE on the board is hurt or appears to be hurt. Has your therapist ever told you that your own pain is enough to deal with without taking on the pain of others?
Forgive me if my assessment of your character is wrong:)
At the end of your ten minute break just think of all those wonderful and supportive "Yay your Back" posts you'll get when you eventually make a post again.
Besides, you know your addicted to this site like the rest of us so I'd be willing to bet you can't stay away no matter how hard you try ( why put yourself through all those horrid withdrawal symptoms)
Love
bluedog
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 11:04:45
In reply to Re: Could you guys just answer one question?, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
This may sound a bit harsh, but I'm not looking to feel better about *myself*. I try hard to believe the best about everyone, that everyone means well, etc. And that takes effort sometimes. I'm trying to understand how the "sensitive" people came to be the bad guys on this thread. I'm trying to understand why no one (else) said to Oddipus that they understood his/her feelings and respected them. I reassured Oddipus that this was true. I tried to believe it. I even appealed to everyone to verify my beliefs. And all I saw was more posts about over-sensitive people, and good fun, and not to take things so seriously, etc. I am not asking that people agree about redneck jokes, I explained that over and over. I'm not saying that others meant harm, I said that over and over. I understand that the term rednecks is probably not understood in all parts of the world, I said that over and over.
But I also said over and over that people didn't mean to disparage those who were sensitive and who had certain values concerning jokes about groups. And yet post after post seemed to prove me wrong. And eventually it broke the camel's back. I could no longer believe that people didn't belittle the values of the "sensitive" persons.
I'm not looking to be asked to stay. I'm not looking for positive statements about me. I'm not looking to be welcomed back. My self esteem is just fine.
I'm trying to maintain my esteem for others, my caring for others, by asking you all straight out if you find sensitive people or sensitivity unacceptable or something to be mocked or belittled.
And if you do, I'm trying to understand why. Because understanding why people feel the way they do is how I maintain my positive feelings towards them.
Again, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. And this isn't intended for anyone in particular. But you guys have disappointed me in your reaction to Oddipus Rex. I don't understand why people couldn't have said "I understand that your values and your sensitivity lead you to feel uncomfortable with these jokes, and I respect that, but....." instead of "some people are so oversensitive, can't you take a joke". That's all.
Posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 11:22:08
In reply to Re: Don't fret IsoM, posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 7:27:50
> This is an incredible reaction when you take into account that Jeff Foxworthy has made millions off of redneck jokes.
> I know rednecks..virtually all of them would have your joke on their refrigerator door.
>
> Thank you,
>
> PhilPhil, have you come across any Foxworthy stuff about pulling teeth without seeing a dentist? I got a cavity when I was eight years old and it was hurting a lot. My parents didn't have the money (or couldn't afford to spend it) to take me to the dentist, so they tied fishing line to my tooth and the other end to a door knob and slammed the door. Out came the tooth! I guess that's how they took care of cavities during the Depression.
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