![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 43. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 10:30:18
whether things are "real" or not?
I mean, when something feels wrong in your relationship with someone, how do you know when to trust your instincts versus when your "instincts" is just your depressed mind putting a negative spin on things?
This is friends, family, coworkers, spouses, children- whatever kind of relationship.
And I've just been given a new diagnosis. The new docs have called me either "borderline bipolar" or "the new bipolar" (stating that Major Depressive and Generalized Anxiety disorders could really be Bipolar with Hypomania, not HypERmania)... And now I'm starting to wonder if I'm paranoid, too.
Does anyone know what I should think? I don't know WHAT to think about anything or anyone anymore.
Posted by Angela2 on June 15, 2005, at 12:00:51
In reply to When you suffer from depression, how do you know, posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 10:30:18
It is hard. I know. I struggle with social anxiety and I am very sensitive sometimes to the things that people say and do. Sometimes I just have to get away from the people who make me feel bad, even if it isn't their fault, even if they aren't purposefully trying to hurt me.
It's hard to know sometimes. I don't know if I have depression though. Though I probably would without the meds. So I don't know exactly what it's like. I'm sorry if this reply wasn't what you were looking for. I hope you find what you are looking for. There are a lot of internet self help sites. Also there is probably a lot of stuff at the library. I have found this kind of reading material to be somewhat helpful.
-Angela2
Posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 12:21:51
In reply to Re: When you suffer from depression, how do you know, posted by Angela2 on June 15, 2005, at 12:00:51
gave me more "labels" to pin on myself, but didn't answer my question!
Hopefully, someone has experienced this and will give me some insight as to how they handled it without going insane from not knowing which to believe...
Thanks for your input, Ang2, good to know someone's listening!!
-sunny10
Posted by TamaraJ on June 15, 2005, at 13:11:28
In reply to When you suffer from depression, how do you know, posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 10:30:18
Well, when I had my first depression 9 years ago, I was misreading a lot of things and was, in my view and looking back on it, somewhat paranoid. I think paranoia can be a symptom of depression. I would imagine that the depressed mind is far more senstive to stimuli, and can misinterpret individuals' words and actions. I remember very clearly thinking that EVERYBODY hated me, and it didn't matter how much evidence to the contrary was there, my conviction remained steadfast. I was also convinced I was going to get fired, even though I still managed to put in up to 10 or 11 hours a day, and got a superior evaluation during that time. It was not pleasant to be thinking like that, and it was actually scary. When I finally was diagnosed with agitated depression and started an AD, things started to settle down, and those kinds of worries diminished. So, I guess I tend to think that a depressed person's instincts are somewhat askew, and it might be in the person's best interests to discuss his/her perceptions with their therapist to see if indeed it may be a matter of misreading cues and signals. I suppose one could also write down the "thought" and then try to think of evidence that would prove or disprove whether there is a founded basis to the thought.
So, I think that paranoia can be a symptom, rather than a new, stand-alone diagnosis.
I hope some of what I said makes sense. And, I hope you continue feeling better as the days go by. Be patient and gentle with yourself, Sunny. You've had a lot on your plate for a while now, and you need time, and maybe even space, to heal and become whole again.
My thoughts are with you. Take good care of you.
Tamara
Posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 13:26:54
In reply to Re: When you suffer from depression, how do you know » sunny10, posted by TamaraJ on June 15, 2005, at 13:11:28
thank you for your input.
I am on my second week of a new Wellbutrin scrip, and this paranoia remains. Of course, the Risperdal that she also put me on can cause "restlessness", so I wonder if that contributes to the state of agitation I am in right now. The paranoia has been around for a while, and the Risp is supposed to control racing thoughts (that's why she put me on it in the first place), but I am extremely agitated- my thoughts aren't racing, but when I try to focus on anything, all this stuff comes up to my consciousness again, unbidden.
I feel belittled, betrayed, and deceived by more than two individuals in my life right now and I don't know whether to believe those feelings or not. Because I OD'd two weeks ago, all of those feelings may be valid. They may also NOT be valid. And when I ask these people whether they are doing XYZ, they say "no", but I'm not sure whether I can trust them to tell me the truth right now. I'm not sure if they would tell the truth if they thought the truth would hurt my feelings at the moment.
My hands are tied, because I either pursue the questioning (and basically call them liars, at a risk of alienating them if I am merely paranoid), or sit here quietly going insane because I don't know what to believe.
Posted by TamaraJ on June 15, 2005, at 14:17:11
In reply to Re: When you suffer from depression, how do you know » TamaraJ, posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 13:26:54
The agitation and restlessness could well be caused by the Wellbutrin, which is a more activating AD. I don't know much about Risperdal, but some of the restlessness and paranoia could also be the result of start-up side effects from that and the Wellbutrin. If you find you are not tolerating the Risperdal well, you could always discuss alternative meds with your pdoc. I think some people find Zyprexa helpful for racing thoughts. You could also ask your pdoc for a script for a low-dose of Klonopin to deal with the agitation.
That being said, you have been given reason not to trust one person in your life, because you caught him in a lie (or maybe it was more than one, I don't recall if you have mentioned more than one deception in previous posts). So, some of your distrust can be expected, IMO, and it will likely take some time for you to let your guard down and be able to trust him again, I think. It's hard not to rationalize and justify our thoughts of possibly being deceived or lied to when we have already been deceived. I think it tends to be a defence mechanism, albeit one that can cause us to question our own sanity and may result, as you have said, in others just telling us "what we want to hear". So, what can you do? Well, are you still in therapy? If so, perhaps you can discuss your reactions to others' responses to your questioning with your T to get an objective opinion as to whether you may be feelng deceived based on others' past actions. You could write down your thoughts, with a column where you would indicate what evidence there is that you are being lied to, and another column where you would indicate what evidence there may be to the contrary.
It is hard to trust again when we have been lied to. I think, though, that if we can slowly move beyond the deceptions and believe that others are not out to hurt us, we start to feel better about ourselves and our relationships.
I hope you can find a way to quiet down the unwelcome thoughts.
Take care,
Tamara
Posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 14:42:48
In reply to Re: When you suffer from depression, how do you know » sunny10, posted by TamaraJ on June 15, 2005, at 14:17:11
for taking the time to write out that well thought-out response.
My SO isn't the only one I feel is being deceitful, though he is one of them as you've already guessed.
The most annoying is the $27.00 bottle of tequila and the bottle of Sauza mixer that turned up missing after I was taken to the hospital. I have asked everyone that I know was in my apt that day if they know where it went and every single one of them has said no!!! I'm not a big drinker, so that expensive bottle was purchased because it lasts longer on the shelf, for one, and because it won't give me a headache like the cheaper ones. Since I don't drink a lot, I was "treating myself" to this bottle and I am just really annoyed that it is gone.
The part that makes it worse is that it is assumed that I was drunk that night. The truth is that I had mixed a Tupperware "pitcher" full- to last a week (I'm lazy), which was in the fridge when they all broke in with the police and ambulance. So all they noticed was the half empty bottle of mixer and the tequila bottle a third empty. All of the sudden, "alcoholic" was being assumed and THAT really pissed me off as I am a light-weight and don't drink much (the pitcher had mixer, liquor, with lemon juice, lime juice, and water in it as well because I'm such a light weight) so you can imagine my disgust and anger with all of that!! The last thing I need is another "label"- 'specially one I don't suffer from!
Besides the fact that someone stealing something from my home has made me feel violated. As if I don't feel violated enough already.
I am going to print your post and take it home with me so that I can wite those lists you mention, instead of just obsessing about all of this. At least if I write something down, I can take it to new T and ask her help in deciphering it.
Thanks again,
sunny10
Posted by TamaraJ on June 15, 2005, at 14:54:46
In reply to Re: thank you so much » TamaraJ, posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 14:42:48
With respect to the missing Tequila, perhaps it was removed from your place with the assumption that it was for your own safey for the time being. I'm sure those closest to you know that you do not abuse alcohol, so try not to worry that someone may think that there is a problem in that area. I don't know if this is done, but the paramedics or the police may have removed the alcohol, without anyone else's knowledge, for safety reasons because of the OD. Was there a police or paramedic report? Are you entitled to a copy of any report? Maybe that might answer the question you have about the missing Tequila. Just a thought.
Posted by Damos on June 15, 2005, at 17:42:07
In reply to When you suffer from depression, how do you know, posted by sunny10 on June 15, 2005, at 10:30:18
Hey Sunny,
Hows the sleep and being back at work going?
Sadly can't be much help on the medication front having experience with a couple of ADs. But I think TamaraJ has got that pretty well covered as well as most everything else. She's good isn't she?
My experience has been that I do tend to get more paranoid when I going through a bad episode and I also find that my antennae are set to ultra-hyer-sensitive at these times too.
In all honesty my normal response is to withdraw even further into myslef and shut everything else out. There are probably only 2 maybe 3 people who I trust without exception even in these periods. My brain still puts a warped spin on everything they say and do - but I can somehow convince myself that "no, these are the good guys." It's hard to be in a place where everything tells you not to trust your own judgement about people and the people around you have proved (at least in a couple of cases) that they can't be trusted.
An interesting concept I try to remember is "The Ladder of Inference" and how it can effect my thinking and actions. So imagine a step ladder up against a wall. Starting at the bottom.
1st rung: Observable 'data' and experiences as a videotape might capture it
2nd rung: I select 'data' from what I observe
3rd rung: I add meanings - cultural and personal to to that 'data'
4th rung: I make assumptions based on the meanings I added
5th rung: I draw conclusions
6th rung: I adopt beliefs about the world based on those conclusions
7th rung: I take actions based on my beliefs
The reflexive loop then means that in the future we select 'data' back down on the second rung based on our beliefs.
So for example, if you'd observed soemthing I did on the video and run it up the ladder where your belief was that I am a jerk, your stating premise will be that I am a jerk and in the future you will observe data that supports that belief.
What this mean is that we, without realising it, collect data that reinforces what we've come to believe, without questioning its validity. A simple test of what we hear is: "When you said '[your inference]', did you mean '[my interpretation of it]'?
I see you've got a new label too. Just what you needed. Please take care Sunny. Really hoping things get better for you soon.
BTW when I played sport the guys called me Arfa. Cause half a glass/can of anything alcoholic and I was gone.
Posted by Susan47 on June 15, 2005, at 22:24:02
In reply to Re: When you suffer from depression, how do you know » sunny10, posted by Damos on June 15, 2005, at 17:42:07
:(
I've been very down, myself. But I obsess about things that bother me, unless I can manage to somehow forget about them. So I use drugs. That helps me forget. Of the people in your apartment that day, I'd probably pick the one I know's lied to me before. I don't know. It's slimy, that some people steal things. I think usually the ones who do that are the ones who can't help themselves. Anybody you know like that? Can you picture yourself understanding and forgiving it? This is so tough for you. You've had some really rough sh*t happening for you so far this year. Things have to get better, could they possibly get any worse? No .. no no no no no. Please. If there is a god.
Posted by sunny10 on June 16, 2005, at 7:27:29
In reply to My pleasure » sunny10, posted by TamaraJ on June 15, 2005, at 14:54:46
unfortunately, the alcohol thing DID get put on the filed 302 deposition and is now part of my permanent record!
It makes me so mad.
I guess I have a right to the police report. But, gosh, I am so embarrassed about "assaulting a policewoman" that I'm not sure I can face them at the station... Especially since I STILL can't remember doing it... Maybe I'll ask a female friend to call them to do it- I'm too mbarrassed to even call...
Posted by sunny10 on June 16, 2005, at 7:29:22
In reply to Re: When you suffer from depression, how do you know » sunny10, posted by Damos on June 15, 2005, at 17:42:07
yes, I know I do the ladder thing.
It's really a question of what is my inference and what is real. I truly can't tell the difference anymore.
And that makes me pretty agitated...
Posted by sunny10 on June 16, 2005, at 7:43:49
In reply to Hi Sunny, I'm sorry I haven't been any help lately, posted by Susan47 on June 15, 2005, at 22:24:02
Tamara does have a point about the police...maybe they do take these things as evidence. I thought they just took pictures...wish I HAD been drunk...
As I said to Damos, the worst part of all of this is not being able to tell anymore (with a lot of deductive reasoning) what I am inferring and what is actually real.
That is the worst part about what's happened over the past six months.
To not know how to react; thus being forced to do nothing while things continue to happen TO me. I am no longer living my life. I am trapped on the sidelines, watching myself go through the motions. I got "saved" from escaping this feeling, but the feeling has not gone away. And I am not exactly getting more sane by the day!! More crazy is more like it. It's strange; while I was in the hospital, I was glad that I was "saved"- happy about it, even. Now that I'm out, most of the time I wish I had suceeded.
I'm sorry to hear that you are not doing well either, my love. Mostly I didn't want to contact you while I was down because I didn't want to upset that happy wagon (or at least sane one) you were driving for a while there.
I know that I have missed a lot on the boards. I simply don't have the energy to read through them all.
Feel free to babblemail me if you want to let me know what's been going on with you- but a warning, I can't get to it until tomorrow night.
Dratted "outside email blocker" at work... And I have plans to go out to a movie tonight. I'm going to ask for the key to my Fitness Center back from my SO. I need the exercise (and something to do, mainly... it is hard to sit around hating yourself alone every night).
mmmmmmwwwwwaaaahhhh,
sunny10
Posted by TamaraJ on June 16, 2005, at 14:29:37
In reply to Re: My pleasure, posted by sunny10 on June 16, 2005, at 7:27:29
But, if it was felt that you had an alcohol abuse problem, don't you think that your pdoc would have raised it with you and told you that you had to do a 12 step program or something like that? It is too bad that it is now part of your permanent record. That stinks, especially since you have never abused alcohol.
As for getting the police report, I don't know if they would release it to a friend, but they may release it to your pdoc. If you are comfortable with that, perhaps you pdoc's office could call to get a copy of the report for you. I don't know if that is done, but it might be worth a try.
Tamara
> unfortunately, the alcohol thing DID get put on the filed 302 deposition and is now part of my permanent record!
>
> It makes me so mad.
>
> I guess I have a right to the police report. But, gosh, I am so embarrassed about "assaulting a policewoman" that I'm not sure I can face them at the station... Especially since I STILL can't remember doing it... Maybe I'll ask a female friend to call them to do it- I'm too mbarrassed to even call...
>
Posted by sunny10 on June 17, 2005, at 7:35:10
In reply to Re: My pleasure » sunny10, posted by TamaraJ on June 16, 2005, at 14:29:37
actually, I was just going to have the friend pretend she was me...
Posted by TamaraJ on June 17, 2005, at 8:13:34
In reply to Re: My pleasure » TamaraJ, posted by sunny10 on June 17, 2005, at 7:35:10
After I posted, I had a d'oh moment, and realized that that was what you were probably thinking of doing :-)
Posted by Susan47 on June 18, 2005, at 1:03:14
In reply to Re: I missed you, but I understand completely » Susan47, posted by sunny10 on June 16, 2005, at 7:43:49
Thank you for posting to me, sweetie. I understand your disconnections. I hope you find peace within your mind, the wonderful peace of just being able to be yourself, part of the universe, full of life and love for Sunny.
Posted by Damos on June 19, 2005, at 17:48:32
In reply to Re: When you suffer from depression, how do you know » Damos, posted by sunny10 on June 16, 2005, at 7:29:22
I'd give the hole where my soul should be to know how to help you. I really would, cause seeing you stuggling hurts.
I don't know what to say other than that I eased those I felt I couldn't trust out of my life over time and it was hard. These were the ones whose presence just made things harder because even when things were good I just second and third guessed everything because I was just waiting for the next bad thing to happen with them. You know what I mean, Even though I loved them dearly and wanted to believe that they loved me, I always had the feeling that the next dose of pain was only a moment away.
On the other side of the coin I consiously chose to trust certain others more - too much if anything, because I was confident that they wouldn't hurt me deliberately and had proven to be sincerely sorry if they did by accident.
Sometimes I carried a friend whos judgement I value with me in my head and just asked myself how they would read a certain situation. Another part was learning to "play each ball on its merits". In other words forcing myself to focus totally just on this instance right now as it is. Not as the last one was or what I think might be coming next but this moment here now. I actually caught myself saying out loud once when I was feeling a little uncomfortable and starting to get ahead of myself, "Just this, here now."
But always, always Sunny dearest ensure that you are physically safe or simply not "at risk" in situations with those that have proven untrustworthy in the past.
Posted by sunny10 on June 20, 2005, at 8:26:43
In reply to Re: When you suffer from depression, how do you know, posted by Damos on June 19, 2005, at 17:48:32
like you are assuming that my inferences can be trusted.
The issue here is that I'm really not sure if they should be trusted.
I am safe. At least from without. Within me is a vast river of chaos and confusion. I know that I am more insecure right now than I have ever been. And I fear that I am being overly vigilant- assuming people are going to hurt me before they ever do. Assuming that people are lying to me. But the truth is, I still cannot remember anything for those two days. I do not know what was said to me, do not know what I said to anyone. It feels kind of like that black hole is growing instead of shrinking in my mind.
My SO talked to me on Saturday night about this stuff, finally. He said that he is still "in this room talking with you like this" because he loves me and still wants a future with me. He agreed with my fear that he would use this suicide attempt to leave me; he said it crossed his mind, but that he realized two things. One is that he loves me and would hate himself for not giving us another chance. And two, he understands that when I am in the depths of depression that I am really not myself. He agrees that I should stay on the meds now- that he understands, in the past, my depressive episodes only struck about every seven years but now they are coming faster and I need the meds to keep them at bay. He said that he is a little afraid to trust in the future, but he now understands how difficult it is for me to believe him sometimes because he lied to me in the past. That we each have to deal with these issues now. When I looked puzzled at the comparison, he said that he didn't distrust ME, he mistrusted the depression and wanted me to promise him that I would stay on the meds. But the suicide attempt did scare him, he said. He also said that although he was already ashamed with himself for letting an argument turn physical, he was really shook up when he thought I might die. He said he realized that he didn't want to live without me and that if he had actually physically hurt me instead of scaring me to death, he would never be able to forgive himself. But that he is still ashamed of scaring me.
He also said that he strongly believes that since we made it through all of this crap, nothing can tear us apart. That we've managed to learn more about each other in two years than most people learn about each other in ten years. That we have a great future ahead of us. That I need to relax and just "be", so that the future can happen. And that he just wanted to be sure that I still wanted the same things.
The only time I interrupted him is when he said that he was glad that I've decided to let him decide when he'll stop using coke. Because he said, "I want to be able to tell you that I went to the casinos with the guys last Friday night and we had some coke". I stopped him and said that I would prefer to know before he went off to the casinos, rather than after. I told him that I would feel more comfortable if I knew what he was doing with his buddies because I AM very insecure rght now. I don't want to be sitting at home alone wondering what he is doing all the time. I told him that he is lucky that all of my friends are married with children (or in one case not married with child!), because he KNOWS that I am not out at strip clubs, or dating other people, or putting myself in any danger (drinking and driving, for instance). I don't have any of these assurances at all. He has single and unhappily married buddies along with happily married friends. And those buddies are always looking to "get some" or just plain "get drunk and stoned". So I DO have things to worry about. And he agreed that I would know that he was GOING, ahead of time, but that even he wouldn't know ahead of time if he was going to decide to use or continue to say no.
He told me that I have to trust him. That he may get drunk, and he may do some drugs "socially", but he is not interested in other women. That he knows how lucky he is to have me. That he simply doesn't even have the time or energy to cheat on me, anyway. But this is the spot that is tricky for me, inference-wise. Because almost all men I have been involved with have cheated on me. And because he HAS lied to me in the past. And he admits this, and he reluctantly had to agree that he is going to have to put up with my doubts and insecurities because he caused them himself by lying to me before, about drugs. He says that he understands that I am not just worried about him lying about drugs, but that it colors everything he says. He wants me to give him a second (or third, he said) chance. He is giving me a second chance to keep taking my meds and stop scaring him to death, he said. I said that I, too, was in the room still talking with him because I was giving him a second chance.
He apparently has done some reading, because he even asked "if the drugs stop working for you, are there any clues I should look for to make sure this doesn't happen again?". I told him that I get extremely anxious about everything and paranoid, too. Plus, I can only see the negative side of things, 'cause that's what the disease does. Of course, I had to explain to him that in this case, he couldn't have seen it coming because there actually WERE things for me to be anxious and paranoid about, and that my dad just died, and we just went through a merger at work... This time was more situational stressors bringing on the depression, rather than the chemicals simply malfuntioning in my brain. But the end result is the same, be it nurture or nature. My brain is simply not equipped to deal with that many stressors at once without medications anymore, I've found out.
So, you see, it's not as simple as just cutting people out of my life as you posted. In order to cut out the person I MOST distrust, well, I'd have to cut out ME.
I distrust myself the most. I think that I am worhtless, in the end, which is why I am so insecure in love relationships. I think that every other woman is better than me. I think that the man I love will ultimately discover that I am a fraud. A person pretending to be as good as everyone else. And in the end, my paranoia usually chases them away, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I no longer want to be right about this, though. I want to believe that I am the perfect woman for him. In the past, I was so afraid of being hurt by someone else, that I wound up hurting myself instead- by chasing them away. But I was always "right"- they were going to leave me.
I don't want to be right. I don't want to lose him. He understands me better than anyone else. He knows what I am thinking now. And although it often makes him mad that I am having a hard time trusting him, he knows that I have a valid reason- one that he is ashamed of. And he knows that he has to deal with it because he caused it.
And the weirdness with my other friends? It is still there. But I am so overcome with embarrassment and shame for succumbing to my "Mr. Hyde", that it is hard for me to tell whether they are uncomfortable around me because of what happened, or are they just reacting to how I act and sound because of my own shame. Yes, they ARE acting strangely, and I am afraid they are not being completely honest with me. But is it because of THEIR feelings, or mine?
You see, it's not quite so simple...
Posted by Damos on June 20, 2005, at 18:18:39
In reply to Re: It sounds (long) » Damos, posted by sunny10 on June 20, 2005, at 8:26:43
Sunny I'm really sorry if I made it sound as though I thought it was simple. It's not, it's so far from simple it's impossible to imagine. It's also impossible for me to imagine what you're going through right now.
In my case the person I had to ease out of my life was the woman I lost a child with. The person to this day who knows me better than anyone. Who I loved and still love more than I can say. But I had no choice. It took me 20 years to do it but I did eventually. How much does this person effect me? Well she called last Thursday out of the blue after 6 mths of complete silence. We spoke for over an hour and she in effect asked me to do my "all the king's horses and all the king's men" act on her life again, and then I spent the rest of the day throwing up and crying pretty regularly from the stress and tension that it caused. She never harmed me physically but did an awful lot of emotional damage. Like you I never knew what was true or not and also knew that I had been lied to and manipulated. I could never get 'balanced' as long as this person was around (obviously still can't). The messages were always so mixed up and then my mental state just spun them all out of control. I also used to hear about everything she did after it had happened, after I had sat at home all weekend wondering why I hadn't heard from her. Emotional and spiritual safety is as important to people like us as physical safety.
Believe me Sunny I kinda have a sense for where you are right now. I feel more insecure than I ever have and emptier than I have for a very long time and I too can see the cycles of my major episodes shortening and it scares the hell out of me. Used to be 5-7 years and is now around 3. Again I'm just hoping this one is more situational than the others and will pass - eventually.
Sunny I cannot and will not judge you for wanting to be with your SO, or judge him. I can only speak my truth and try to help and support you however I can.
Your comments about You being the person you trust least rang true for me too. If I could be rid of me most of my troubles would've been over long ago. Alex actually said to me yesterday that I had the lowest self esteem of anyone she knew, so I can identify with what you said about yourself.
Three questions:
Are you competent? Yes, you've survived all that has happened to you. Yes, you manage to hold down a job. Yes, you have raised a child. Yes, you responded to the 'holiday incident' so remarkably and got yourself sorted. Yes, you are questioning your own thinking and actions because you believe they are not as effective as they could be. Yes, because you take responsibility for your own life.
Are you a good person? Yes, no matter what you are going through you reach out to people here and do everything you can to help and support them. Yes, because you are kind and caring. Yes, because I don't believe you ever mean to hurt anyone. Yes, because I believe there is so much that is good about you that I don't get to see - I can feel it.
Are you worthy of love? Yes! More than you know or will probably ever accept. Yes!
A lot of what I hear you expressing sound like identity issues and given what I understand about your life that makes perfect sense. The questions above are identity questions. When we doubt our own identity we start to interpret everything that happens in relation to our identity. I still struggle with this badly. I loose sight of my identity issues and then use 'all-or-nothing' thinking. The call I spoke about above is a classic example and the after effects are what I describe as an identity quake.
So where do you start unravelling the anxiety and fearfulness around this? Okay, first you need to start looking for patterns in what tends to knock you off balance in conversation and social situations. Second, you need to look at what about your identity feels at risk here. what it means to you. How would it feel if what you fear were true. This is tough make no mistake and raises some ugly questions and might be something you want to do with your T as they are way more capable of helping you through this than me. For me there were answers like: What if they reject me, What if they laugh, etc.
The next bit's just as tough. Once you've identified the identity triggers you need to 'complexify' your self-image. That means moving away from "I am perfect" and "I am worthless", because they are false choices and getting a clearer picture of what is actually true about you. Like the rest of us your true picture is a complex mix of good and bad, wise and unwise, etc, etc. Nobody is absolutely perfect or totally worthless (well, except me). You are never always anything - except Sunny. by making your image more complex it allows you to feel good about many things and also ambivalent or regretful about others because life is too complex for any reasonable person to feel otherwise. Well that's the theory anyway.
I remember a story about a martial arts master and his student. The student said: "Master, you never loose your balance." The Master replied: "I loose my balance often, my skill lies in my ability to regain it."
Do your friends act weird around you. I reckon there's a pretty good chance they do, because they don't know how to act right now and are probably afraid of how every word and action is going to be taken and interpreted but are afraid to say they are afraid and unsure because they're afraid of upsetting or worrying you. So the answer to your question is both.
The way I started identifying what was going on in my head was using a sheet of paper with a line drawn down the middle to record the left and right hand conversations. The left hand column was what was said, done, actually happened, and the right hand side was what I was actually thinking at the time. I'll repeat it again. I still have real trouble maintaining any sort of identity for any length of time, but I am better at identifying why I'm thinking the way I am.
I so want to help you get through this Sunny and I really hope your SO is the one and that things do start getting better for you real soon. Lord knows you've been through enough for several lifetimes.
Posted by Damos on June 20, 2005, at 19:21:27
In reply to Re: It sounds (long) » Damos, posted by sunny10 on June 20, 2005, at 8:26:43
Posted by sunny10 on June 21, 2005, at 7:51:44
In reply to Sorry (very long) » sunny10, posted by Damos on June 20, 2005, at 18:18:39
I can see myself in everything you wrote. How old are you? I'm wondering because my cycles used to be 5-7 years apart, too. I think we are so alike that it's a little scary sometimes.
We even react the same way (nausea and vomiting- gee, do you have irritable bowel syndrome, too?) to the stresses of wanting to help someone we love and knowing that it will be too hard on us to do so because they will hurt us while we are helping them.
There really is no need for the lists in my case. It is quite pathetic, but I know WHY I am the way I am. I just can't seem to learn to think differently with all of the knowledge that I HAVE actually proven myself to not be worthless. I cannot seem to mesh logical thinking with emotional thinking. I know this is the problem. I know that I have not forgiven my mother for her harsh treatment of me. I have not been able to forgive myself for putting up with that harsh treatment. And I know that I have incorporated my harsh mother as my inner critic. I just don't know how to get rid of this baggage. I've been to four or five different T's. They have all given me the attitude of "just do it. You know what the issues are, so just get over it and teach yourself to think differently." As if I have the tools necessary to be able to do such things. No one has taken the time to actually teach me HOW. If I could "just do it", I would have been "cured" long ago- at least in terms of the nurture side of depression. And I think that I wouldn't have to rely on brain chemicals as much if I didn't get so upset over things to begin with- no shortage of serotonin or dopamine (or faulty receptors- as they are not sure which is the answer) if I didn't have to use so much of them to be stable. So maybe the nature side of depression would be "cured", too.
I have not spoken to my mother in twenty years. I have found that it is impossible to forgive someone who refuses to admit to any wrongdoings.
And it is wrong to let your child know since birth how unwanted they were. How their godmother saved their life by stopping the mother from going through with an abortion. For letting them know that they are despised for being the reason that a fiance ran away when the man found out the mother was pregnant. That it is the child's fault that the mother is alone and sad- just by being alive. No grade could ever be good enough. No activity could ever be quiet enough to allow the child to go unnoticed and unberated. Hugs and kisses only happened in front of others- never in the home. The child learned to pretend everything was normal in public while everything was in tatters inside.
My mother understands now that she suffers from depression. I know because she sent a book about depression to me (as a Christmas gift) through my aunt and cousin one year saying that it helped her. The premise of the whole book was to forget the past and move on as if it never happened. That is what she has decided to do. Which would be fine except that her depression destroyed the lives of two children (and the third, my brother, is so guarded that his wife has a hard time getting in- so you could say three children).
Even in AA and NA, you have to make amends to those you've harmed during your "sick days".
I know I'm supposed to decide not to care whether I ever have her approval or her request for forgiveness. I know that I cannot "change" another person, nor should I wait around for them to change on their own. I can, logically, not care. I've logically not cared for twenty years. But I know that my inferences are those of a wounded little girl. I know that every "mean-sounding" comment is my father not sticking around to ever know me; is my mother berating me and never loving me. It just evolved into every man that ever hurt me, et cetera. But I know where it starts.
I just can't seem to make it stop.
Posted by Damos on June 21, 2005, at 21:47:27
In reply to Re: you never talk out of your *ss » Damos, posted by sunny10 on June 21, 2005, at 7:51:44
Sorry Sunny,
Just spent 90mins replying to you and my ISP crashed and it's all gone. Will try again later if I can.
BTW I am 41 in August around the time you were going to go into hospital from memory.
Thanks for all that you share with me and for being my friend. It means a lot.
Posted by Susan47 on June 21, 2005, at 22:36:00
In reply to Re: you never talk out of your *ss » Damos, posted by sunny10 on June 21, 2005, at 7:51:44
Your story is familiar to me.
Wish it weren't, but maybe for a reason, it is.
Because baby, I'm here to tell you that YES you can get to the other side, and it's like nothing you imagined, because you can't imagine it, it's out of your experience. But you Will get to know, and love and trust yourself (kind of like me most days, now). I did it with meds and self-medication still, but I'm going to beat that, too.
Because I beat the monster inside myself.
And it was just a little green frog.
Sitting in there, croaking away, going, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me ...
and I did, and the frog disappeared,
and I had myself there, Whole for the first time, absolutely complete and, for a second, absolutely beautiful.
That was the gift.. that second. Y'know the strange thing? It feels like a second but it was actually a couple of years.
Keep working, keep up therapy, keep up your meds and keeping talkin' here baby, 'cause it's Great Satisfaction ... sincerely, lovingly, and just a little bit tired and maybe more than a titch feeling floating .. (oi) Susan.
Posted by sunny10 on June 22, 2005, at 7:26:44
In reply to Thanks » sunny10, posted by Damos on June 21, 2005, at 21:47:27
oh goodness, I did that last weekend... spent an enormous amount of time writing an email to my SO's mom (who I knew before I even knew my SO)- being careful to weigh each and every word... Then the phone rang and I answered it, not knowing that my ISP was going to time me out!
I lost the whole thing, too, though it taught me to highlight and copy what I'm doing before I answer the phone next time!!!!
I never did actually get around to re-writing that email... Guess I second guessed myself and decided she wasn't ready to hear the truth, anyway. Must have been fate in my case...
I treasure you also, Damos. Wish I was there...well, ok, wish I was someone else and I was there!
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