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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 82. Go back in thread:
Posted by partlycloudy on May 22, 2005, at 6:19:13
In reply to Re: Maybe So, But, posted by AdaGrace on May 21, 2005, at 17:03:12
It sounds like aside from issues with your spouse, there is a family dynamic imbalance... chores being shared, older kids being responsible for their own laundry instead of blaming you for something not being clean and pressed when they want it. When us kids started getting too fussy about foods, mom replied (as she raced for the door to get to work) "well, I guess you'd better learn to cook, then!". I didn't start doing Domestic Chores until I was 12, but it took my mom off the hook and allowed her to continue her assertion of independence. I don't think it's ever too late to institute some changes.
Plus, you don't wear the doormat look very well - it's giving you a wedgie, girl!
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2005, at 7:26:03
In reply to Re: it's probably just the men we attract, but » AdaGrace, posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 12:57:02
> And there is one more thing that I do not understand. I know that men are not raised to "make themselves available to their loved ones", but what is the whole thing about them needing actual physical space that is only theirs? To go sit in to be by themselves? They already scratch themselves, pick their noses, ogle large-breasted women, stink up the room passing gas, and rearrange their packages in front of us... What the heck do they "need" this room for, exactly???
>
> Can anyone answer this for me???Oh, I don't know that I can answer anything, but I can talk about me.
I do need solitude. Every day. If I don't get it, I feel a greater need.
And as for the other things listed above, manners are a state of mind. But, on the other hand, package rearrangement (as an example) has an urgency that is pretty hard to suppress. *Lots* of nerves down there. As for flatulence, my mother-in-law used to say, "Better an empty house than a bad tenant." And, if you're thinking stereotypes, she came from "upper crust, old money".
Anyway, men can be boors, no doubt. The stereotype of a bachelor arose for a reason. Perhaps the problem is that some women expect that all male behaviours should disappear in their presence? I'm just being devils advocate. As I mentioned in another post, with respect to toilet seats, I do listen to my loved ones. I do accomodate them.
In my marriage, I did 95% of the meal preparation, 98% of the grocery shopping, 100% of the outdoor work, but I can't remember vacuuming (except around the fireplace, my responsibility), and she did the dishes (later, I installed a dishwasher, said installation being my work, of course). We didn't have a formal separation of chores. It just divided up that way. When the kids were tiny, I slept through the night-time wakenings (I honestly didn't hear them), but by late morning (6 a.m. or so), they would wake me. So that was the split. I took "morning duty", and my wife slept in. I brought her tea in bed every morning.
Whatever, in the end. I'm divorced now. I got hurt, couldn't work, and it went downhill from there. Major money issues.
In general, I have a problem with all stereotypes, unless they're used very loosely. Sometimes, they're a good shorthand way to make a point. But beyond that, when you use them to apply to a person, I get really alert.
In these posts, I have seen a lot of "they do...." kind of statements. Those are stereotypes, not people. Our relationships are with individuals. Stereotypes are mental templates, with profound effect on expectation. To a large degree, if you think in stereotypes, emotional responses that arise in a personal relationship are not with the person at all. You're reacting to your expectation. He either conformed to the stereotype (usually a pejorative conformity), or he failed to meet the standards of the stereotype (usually also used as a putdown, e.g. male bread-winner). The failure of expectation might otherwise exist anyway, but a real effort has to be made to distinguish between the feelings arising from how someone is "supposed to be" compared to those arising from how they are.
So, I have a real problem entering into discussions of this sort. One of the biggest problems I faced in my marriage was the unexpected imposition of stereotypical expectations on my behaviour. There were rules that I knew nothing about, and had never negotiated. The stereotype expected me to be somebody that I was not. And yet, the man I was, was a good man. In the end, that didn't count for much. I was wrong, without even knowing what was wrong.
Lar
Posted by Tamar on May 22, 2005, at 17:17:19
In reply to Re: Maybe So, But, posted by AdaGrace on May 21, 2005, at 17:03:12
Oh dear! Your life sounds so hard! You must be exhausted!
I don’t think it should be a question of sacrifice. If you are working full time you shouldn’t be expected to do all the housework as well. The biggest problem is that if you do all of it, your family will continue to expect it.
Can you ask your husband to cook once a week, or even more often? What the heck - even if he makes something simple and less-than-fully-nutritional? All sorts of things are quick and easy enough for someone who isn’t used to cooking (pasta pesto, omelette, etc). Can you ask you daughters to take responsibility for their own laundry? When I was a teenager my mother was sometimes so depressed that I couldn’t rely on her to make supper, do my laundry, or get me up in the morning, and so I did those things myself. It didn’t kill me. Of course you want to look after your kids, but it’s in their nature to fail to appreciate the things we do for them; they just don’t know how much work we do. Housework is easy to learn; they’ll get the hang of laundry in no time.
There are things that you probably really need and don’t seem to be getting: 1. sleep, 2. sex, 3. supper. From your post, you don’t seem to get enough of these things, but your body probably requires them in order to stay healthy! Can you make sure you get yours?
And about men and solitude: I think Lar is quite right, and it’s about stereotypes. On the other hand, a lot of men do seem to need time to themselves. I think it’s as well not to resent it too much, as long as you get some of the things you need too. My husband is easier to live with and more prepared to share the housework if he gets time to himself. I don’t entirely understand why he needs it so much but I get along with him better if I let him have what he needs.
Posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 7:56:18
In reply to Re: it's probably just the men we attract, but » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2005, at 7:26:03
obviously, by the subject line, I do KNOW that this is the type of guy I've attracted in the past- no getting around that. The common denominator is ME, absolutely.
I'm sorry if you felt put down. I WAS just talking about a group of men- NOT ALL MEN.
I haven't met them all (smile).And I am actually very much okay with all of the "human stuff" - gas, package and all... I grew up with an older brother (plus, I'm human and have been known to pass gas and adjust my bra!)
It's the physical space thing that gets me- and you mention it yourself. The solitude thing. In a Zen-like way, I realize that some time to oneself is important, but women make do with the usual rooms of the house for their solitude, why do men need a space that no one else is allowed in? And if you have that space, does that mean that the woman in your life is allowed HER own space, too? And then how much is spent on the rent or the mortgage for the two extra rooms rather than on the wellbeing of the family?
I meant it as a question... not a putdown. I was just looking for answers that I cannot find within myself, that's all...
Posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 8:03:15
In reply to Re: Maybe So, But » AdaGrace, posted by Tamar on May 22, 2005, at 17:17:19
I just stopped doing things.
When my son asked me why his clothes weren't clean, I told him that if he helped out around the house, I would be less tired and his clothes would get cleaned.
When my SO asked me why the bathroom wasn't clean, I told him I hadn't found the energy to do it, but he was welcome to go ahead and clean it if he was offended by it.
No one else will put you first, AG, you have to put you first sometimes. And, frankly, my son and SO didn't have that much to say about it when I explained that I needed my "downtime" as much as they do.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 10:32:13
In reply to Re: it's probably just the men we attract, but » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 7:56:18
> obviously, by the subject line, I do KNOW that this is the type of guy I've attracted in the past- no getting around that. The common denominator is ME, absolutely.
>
> I'm sorry if you felt put down. I WAS just talking about a group of men- NOT ALL MEN.
> I haven't met them all (smile).I want to make clear than I did not feel put down. Not in the slightest. Nor was I feeling defensive as I wrote my bit.
I am defensive about stereotypes. Wherever they exist. I tried to make that distinction explicit in my post.
I don't mind being questioned, even interrogated, if I am being addressed as an individual. I do mind being addressed as a member of a stereotypical entity.
I described myself, without a defensive sense being active. I tried to separate me from "men".
> And I am actually very much okay with all of the "human stuff" - gas, package and all... I grew up with an older brother (plus, I'm human and have been known to pass gas and adjust my bra!)
It seemed to be something you were linking to the next criterion. I see them as separate, and it seems that you do, too.
> It's the physical space thing that gets me- and you mention it yourself. The solitude thing. In a Zen-like way, I realize that some time to oneself is important, but women make do with the usual rooms of the house for their solitude, why do men need a space that no one else is allowed in?When I had the opportunity to have "space" of my own, it wasn't something I declared as "entry forbidden". It was simply a space where my spouse had no interest to be, but I did. Actually, there were a number of such spaces. My office, crammed with books and my computer. My workshop, full of tools and parts and stuff. My gardens, both flowers and veggies.
> And if you have that space, does that mean that the woman in your life is allowed HER own space, too?
Sure. My wife had a room for her own "non-shared" stuff. A space to be her own individual self.
> And then how much is spent on the rent or the mortgage for the two extra rooms rather than on the wellbeing of the family?
Well, I wouldn't put having space over basic needs. Not ever.
Right now, I have a chair. That is my private space. My chair, in which I read. I suppose that space includes the lamp beside it, for when the natural light fades. I am very possessive of that space.
I also have my computer. Similar.
> I meant it as a question... not a putdown. I was just looking for answers that I cannot find within myself, that's all...
One of the issues that arose in my marriage was that when I had a stressful day, I needed a little solitude time as I came home, so that I could comfortably enter into being a part of the family.
If I sat and read the local paper (a small one, max twenty minutes of reading), I was transformed. Without that interlude, I found it very hard.
No amount of alternative experimentation and discussion (we went to marriage counsellors) ever relieved me of the need for that brief solitude. To my wife, however, it was me failing to address her need for my contribution, for recognizing her, and us, above me.
Maybe it was my version of the toilet seat thing, but I did not obtain accomodation from my spouse. And I found myself unable to accomodate her, on this issue. I tried, but I could not do without that transition time.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 13:12:54
In reply to Re: it's probably just the men we attract, but » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 10:32:13
is it at all possible that your wife couldn't accomodate you with that time because no one was accomodating her needs? (tell me if I am being too nosy... I just know that I have a hard time "allowing things" for others that they do not provide for me in return- it's an equality thing, I guess...)
And that's all I really meant with all of those other words.
Is any one party in a relationship entitled to more "time for self" than any other party in a relationship?
Although it sounds like I am in a lower income bracket than you, so it comes out as an actual "space" question for me, too...I've never had enough money for extra rooms... I've always been asked to give one up...
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 13:35:08
In reply to Re: it's probably just the men we attract, but » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 13:12:54
> is it at all possible that your wife couldn't accomodate you with that time because no one was accomodating her needs? (tell me if I am being too nosy... I just know that I have a hard time "allowing things" for others that they do not provide for me in return- it's an equality thing, I guess...)
I don't think of it in terms of quid pro quo, although it might come down to that.
Really, it's an example of irreconcilable differences. There is no right answer.
I could not give her the immediacy she needed, without giving up something I needed.
She could not delay her need for my interaction, until I had unwound.
It doesn't matter how you look at it, we couldn't complete the transaction to our mutual satisfaction.
> And that's all I really meant with all of those other words.
>
> Is any one party in a relationship entitled to more "time for self" than any other party in a relationship?No. Emphatically no. It's not a question of more. It's one of enough. And that is what communication and accomodation are (hopefully) all about.
There may not be a way to make it work. That is nobody's fault. It just is.
> Although it sounds like I am in a lower income bracket than you, so it comes out as an actual "space" question for me, too...I've never had enough money for extra rooms... I've always been asked to give one up...
I went into marriage mortgage-free, with investments. I ended marriage as I am today, bankrupt.
There are other kinds of gender stereotypes. Ask the courts.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 14:39:55
In reply to Re: it's probably just the men we attract, but » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 13:35:08
yes, I am talking about equality in a relationship- that's really all. I happen to be female, my SO (past and present) happen/s to be male thus the "men in my life" terminology.
For all I know, some women do this, too. I just don't happen to be intimate with other women.
I really didn't mean to offend by my questions.
This is the second time in three days that I have managed to offend someone with the WAY I was trying to ask questions...
I think I better content myself with being ignorant... this "me learning things" is apparently too dangerous for those around me..
I was generalizing, yes. But I didn't mean to stereotype- that's the difference I was trying to point out, but keep failing miserably.
Ever since I was on Effexor XR and have weaned off of it, I just don't make sense anymore...I don't do it on purpose- really.
Sorry.
Posted by AdaGrace on May 23, 2005, at 16:30:31
In reply to Re: Maybe So, But, posted by AdaGrace on May 21, 2005, at 17:03:12
The missing link here is a non-suportive spouse who will let the children get by with non compliance and disrespect on a daily basis. Why should I expect it and receive it when he doesn't. It's not from lack of trying. I really do. But after a long day of stress, the last thing I want to do is argue with the kids about their chores and who does what, and who does more, etc. These last few weeks I have just simply cooked the meals, made sure my clothes were washed and folded to keep the wrinkles at bay, straigten up my area of the couch and end table in the living room so I can sit for a few minutes after everyone is gone to bed. And of course when things are just too gross to sit amongst, I go outside and sit in my flower gardens and view what I have created and what I enjoy. My issue is not that I DON'T get time or space to myself, it's that I rarely allow it for myself because of the lack of work done around the house to begin with. I wasn't raised this way. I was not a lazy child. I did what I was told and of course I paid the consequences when I didn't. Was that a better way? I don't know. All I know is that I learned at a young age how to take care of myself, i.e. cook, clean, do laundry, and be presentable in my appearance and my surroundings. Why is that so hard to teach? I give up so easily just to keep the noise level down to a dull roar at my house. When things get too bad, I catch my husband doing the cleaning, and then is griping about it the whole time. He can't get the kids to do anything either, and they see him doing it and so they know it will get done. However, the children and him have a very different view of what clean is compared to me. I'm not a neat freak by any means. I just can't stand the clutter, and the deep down filth that never gets taken care of. I give up and it backfires on me in ten folds. THe clutter is worse, etc. etc. I don't cook a meal and the entire kitchen is trashed when they do it. Clean laundry piles up on the chairs in the living room unfolded, or if it is folded, it stays in stack until someone wants something and then they just go to their pile and pull out a pair of jeans and a shirt. Oops if the pile falls over, leave it lay. I am just so mad right now I can't stand to talk about it anymore...........I f*cking hate my life. I really do.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 22:47:23
In reply to Re: my ex has my son- I'm familiar with them... » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 14:39:55
> yes, I am talking about equality in a relationship- that's really all. I happen to be female, my SO (past and present) happen/s to be male thus the "men in my life" terminology.
>
> For all I know, some women do this, too. I just don't happen to be intimate with other women.
>
> I really didn't mean to offend by my questions.Sunny, I wasn't ever offended. I became vigilant. It's because of my baggage. That's not your doing.
> This is the second time in three days that I have managed to offend someone with the WAY I was trying to ask questions...
When I answered, I found myself expressing some of my own buried feelings of hurt. It was cathartic. I was mortgage-free at 32 years of age. I lost a lot after my marriage failed.
> I think I better content myself with being ignorant... this "me learning things" is apparently too dangerous for those around me..Please don't stop. We learn from one another, by doing this. This is a male-female interaction thing. It takes contributions from both sides.
> I was generalizing, yes. But I didn't mean to stereotype- that's the difference I was trying to point out, but keep failing miserably.*I* chose to be very explicit about sterotyping. It is very important for me to do that. I didn't feel stereotyped. I had to be clear about what it was for myself. For my own reasons.
> Ever since I was on Effexor XR and have weaned off of it, I just don't make sense anymore...I don't do it on purpose- really.
>
> Sorry.I'm sorry too, Sunny.
I respect you very much. And I repeat, I was never offended. I was vigilant.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 10:43:52
In reply to Re: my ex has my son- I'm familiar with them... » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 14:39:55
Every once in a while, the tenderness of certain wounds becomes a part of my awareness.
Where you saw me being offended, was me being careful with my tender parts.
It has become my coping strategy to very clearly define my boundaries around my tender bits. Otherwise, how could you know?
Your part (remember the tennis analogy?) was to put the ball in play, a shot I found difficult to reach because of my tender parts. The net represents the distinction between your realm and mine. What happened on my side of the net was not your doing.
What we have done is learn something about one another.
If we continue that "tennis game" of life together, it is how we manage the knowledge of one another that makes the difference. Not what happened, but what happens.
Hugs,
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 24, 2005, at 12:24:48
In reply to P.S. sunny...... » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 10:43:52
are really close to the surface just now...
One of them happens to be that be that I keep hitting other people's tender parts lately and I don't mean to...
Think I'll just keep my mouth shut (or fingers still, in this case) for a while...
Posted by Deneb on May 25, 2005, at 22:24:22
In reply to I am Amazed - Please forgive me Men, posted by AdaGrace on May 20, 2005, at 6:17:32
> The superiority of being a male gives them an awesome advantage in the work force, and most often times in a relationship.
I agree there are some differences between men and women (besides the physical diffs), but superior?...hehe, in terms of genetics it is the opposite. Just kidding...there's no way to tell whether or not one is "superior" to another IMO.
I don't think I fit the typical female stereotype...
I, like Larry also need my "alone" time everyday. :-)
I don't like shopping for clothes :-)
I don't like cuddling and hugging and other signs of affection.
I'm happy to be alone for the rest of my life...I'm putting career ahead of family....hmmm...then again, this solitude I desire may be a bit pathological :-PDeneb, used to be Shy_Girl (jenny)
Posted by AdaGrace on May 27, 2005, at 7:45:38
In reply to Re: I am Amazed - Please forgive me Men » AdaGrace, posted by Deneb on May 25, 2005, at 22:24:22
When I say superior, I mean in the workforce.
Superior status.
Superior wages.
Superior rewards.
Superior praise.
Superior acknowledgement.Let a woman have a good idea and it is ignored.
Let a man have the same idea a few days or weeks later and it's commended.Find a woman capable of the job and a man with the same capabilities will get the job.
Clean off my desk will you?
I'm going to pay him $60,000 because he's a man, he asked for that amount, and after all, he comes with credentials. Nevermind he is a drunk, and incapable of adapting to unfamiliar surrounds, and has no common sense in his head to deal with our own unique surroundings........and yes, I know you know this company like the back of your hand, and I know you are quite capable of doing the job, and of course we couldn't make it without you.....but he's a man. You are so much better with cleaning up after the messes men like him make when they have no clue how to deal with our "unique" company situations. I like how you clean up. You are so good at it.
BLAH, BLAH, F*CKITY F*CK BLAH.
Posted by AdaGrace on May 27, 2005, at 7:51:23
In reply to Re: it's probably just the men we attract, but » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2005, at 7:26:03
I realize that my post is very stereotypical.
I do not mean to say that ALL men are like this.However, having said that, I find it typical of the men I have known or now know. Perhaps it is location. Perhaps it is only my situation. I don't know. I just know my own experiences and those of my friends and aquaintances. I find it disturbing and wanted to vent. I realize that there are men out there, like you, who aren't like my descriptions. I just didn't meet you in my formative years, therefore I have gained a somewhat negative outlook on the male species I guess. It's sad really. I feel as if I have so much to offer intelectually, physically, emotionally, etc., but challenged for trying to do that. Anyway. I know stereotypes are bad to express. I need a new way to vent maybe.
AdaGrace
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2005, at 18:56:35
In reply to Re: Stereotypes » Larry Hoover, posted by AdaGrace on May 27, 2005, at 7:51:23
> I realize that my post is very stereotypical.
> I do not mean to say that ALL men are like this.Ya, and I knew you weren't talking about me. You don't know anything about me.
> However, having said that, I find it typical of the men I have known or now know. Perhaps it is location. Perhaps it is only my situation. I don't know. I just know my own experiences and those of my friends and aquaintances. I find it disturbing and wanted to vent.
I hope I didn't disturb that. I'm not offended by that at all. Your experience is your experience. It is very hard, though, to discuss me in the context of a stereotype, no matter how I try to do it.....I end up being very careful about language and meaning. And it ends up sounding defensive or protective.
> I realize that there are men out there, like you, who aren't like my descriptions.
Thanks. I like to think that's true.
> I just didn't meet you in my formative years, therefore I have gained a somewhat negative outlook on the male species I guess. It's sad really. I feel as if I have so much to offer intelectually, physically, emotionally, etc., but challenged for trying to do that. Anyway.
That makes me sad.
> I know stereotypes are bad to express. I need a new way to vent maybe.
>
> AdaGraceI'm struggling with making what I want to say clear and concise. I find it hard, as an individual, one who happens to have a penis, to join into a discussion which involves male stereotypes. Stereotypes exist for good reason. They have a basis in fact. The difficulty is in making the discussion personal and individual, without addressing the stereotypical stuff too heavily. The upside of stereotypes is they save a lot of words. They're symbolic. The downside is that they are symbolic. Highly symbolic words carry a lot of emotional baggage.
I agree that the stereotypical male you were speaking of is not one who promotes a high-quality emotionally interactive supportive and non-judgmental relationship.
It does make me wonder, though, and as you seemed to wonder too.....just how much location and situation affect the observations you and your friends have made.
Lar
Posted by Susan47 on June 1, 2005, at 13:40:17
In reply to Re: Maybe So, But, posted by AdaGrace on May 21, 2005, at 17:03:12
If that's your life, that's hell. I never could succumb to all of that but I spent my time trying, and it cost me dearly. It's costing you as well. Heed your bitterness, sweetie, and get those internal changes broiling. You're the boss of your life. There's no bandmaster out here making sure you're marching in time to the beat. The beat you follow is your own, you have to be your own bandmaster, maybe it's time to start just marching without the beat, see how soon it joins you. Because it will, when you're marching on your own, the beat will come.
Posted by Susan47 on June 1, 2005, at 14:51:33
In reply to Re: Stereotypes » AdaGrace, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2005, at 18:56:35
Oh, Larry, I do wish you hadn't brought up your penis.
Oh, dear. You're such a lovely man.
Posted by 10derHeart on June 1, 2005, at 16:07:52
In reply to Re: Stereotypes » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan47 on June 1, 2005, at 14:51:33
> Oh, Larry, I do wish you hadn't brought up your penis.
> Oh, dear. You're such a lovely man.Okay, I'm curious. I admit. Umm...I mean about what you wrote, Susan.
So...I'm sure you don't mean now because he mentioned his penis that he's NOT a lovely man, obviously.
So, what's distressing? If you feel like saying, Susan. Sounds like somehow that changed something in your mind...unless you were just joking around.....
Or just tell me to go jump in a lake...I probably should, it's hot as Hades here, anyway.
But I am curious on what you meant.
Posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 8:44:24
In reply to Re: Stereotypes » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on June 1, 2005, at 16:07:52
Larry's just said a lot of nice things to me. He shouldn't bring up his maleness, I mean, of course he should, but I shouldn't have read that because it makes me hot. That's all. Men just hurt me. I get involved in their sexiness, in wanting them, but I can't handle the something about them. There's something about them that scares me. So I'm attracted/frightened, I guess. Moth to the flame. It doesn't take much, y'know, the light of a man's sexuality is enough to burn me.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2005, at 16:56:39
In reply to Re: Stereotypes » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan47 on June 1, 2005, at 14:51:33
> Oh, Larry, I do wish you hadn't brought up your penis.
> Oh, dear. You're such a lovely man.?????
I'm smiling, but...??????
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2005, at 17:00:56
In reply to Re: Stereotypes, posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 8:44:24
> Larry's just said a lot of nice things to me. He shouldn't bring up his maleness, I mean, of course he should, but I shouldn't have read that because it makes me hot. That's all. Men just hurt me. I get involved in their sexiness, in wanting them, but I can't handle the something about them. There's something about them that scares me. So I'm attracted/frightened, I guess. Moth to the flame. It doesn't take much, y'know, the light of a man's sexuality is enough to burn me.
Susan, that's a pretty bittersweet confession. Very touching. <sigh>
I truly hope that you are to be drawn towards a flame that illuminates your heart, without burning you in any way.
Lar
Posted by Susan47 on June 3, 2005, at 17:46:05
In reply to Re: Stereotypes » Susan47, posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2005, at 17:00:56
Mmm. Me, too. I wonder how the babble party's going. Has anyone heard from Sunny? I need to call her today, this afternoon, she's three hours different.
Posted by Susan47 on June 3, 2005, at 17:55:47
In reply to Re: Stereotypes, posted by Susan47 on June 3, 2005, at 17:46:05
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