![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 119. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 21:07:51
In reply to Re: cybersex, Alesta » alexandra_k, posted by alesta on May 1, 2005, at 21:00:35
Oh no, not abrasive at all. Very funny and interesting...
> > He he he!!! You don't want me to play matchmaker????!
> yyyyeah..iiii'll..let you know if i need any help...<tentative smile>..no <very nervous, agitated, untrusting, ambivalent smile> :)Aw. I can be very very good at keeping peoples confidences. Good at keeping the old mouth shut. Seriously, though if you want to talk then do feel free to Babblemail.
> > (It is quite all right - I would hate to embarrass you over this - I absolutely detest it when people do that to me). Still... It is human nature to be nosey, I suppose ;-)
> i hear ya! and i fully empathize...lol (sorry, i don't know why i'm laughing..:)... But if you would rather keep it to yourself then I fully understand (really). Maybe that was a nervous laugh because you were slightly worried I was going to give you a hard time / put pressure on you to talk??? Nope. Sorry if I have embarrassed you already. I was sort of kidding around. But I would hate to embarrass you. I have been embarrassed a lot in my life about things like this - and I would never wish that feeling on anyone.
> > ROFL!!!> if only i knew what that meant. hmm. my computer is so finicky right now. figures. when i need to look up one of these allegedly commonplace anacronyms..
ROFL is 'Roll on the floor laughing'.
It means that I cracked up :-)
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 1, 2005, at 21:35:24
In reply to Re: cybersex, Alesta » rainbowbrite, posted by alesta on May 1, 2005, at 21:04:43
Gee Thanks :-D
Wow an entire thread just to make me smile...it worked LOL
Posted by alesta on May 1, 2005, at 21:41:03
In reply to Re: cybersex, Alesta » alesta, posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 21:07:51
aww, you're too sweet..i was totally kidding/playing around, alex. you didn't humiliate me whatsoever! promise!i gotta run..i need to babblemail someone..boy are they gonna get a shock. :-)
alesta ;)
Posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 11:48:11
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 19:10:46
See, this is where you and I part ways in our thinking. Or perhaps it's in our experience. No matter what the spell is that he wove, no matter what the magic, I still felt love. Love is a feeling. When you experience it, you know it. You never forget it. I felt love from another source, and whether that source was my mind or not, is completely irrelevant. I learned love, see? Period. Absolutely no mystery to that in itself. None.
Posted by alesta on May 4, 2005, at 13:47:22
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine), posted by Susan47 on May 1, 2005, at 17:01:42
> No I know and I'm living that, alesta, I'm learning to be happy with me. I definitely am not a love addict, I would've had to have been in love to be that, by definition. I haven't ever been truly in love with anyone before, can you believe, not even my children? Not until after this last male therapist of mine, my god. Somehow, and I know this sounds sappy and has a fairytale quality, okay, but somehow the only way I can express it now is he wove a spell. Maybe not realizing it, maybe that's his magic, or maybe he does practice his art, on people like me. That must be his success.
well therapists are like anyone else..you know, i can see some of them wanting to be accepted by their patients..so perhaps he did intentionally try to weave "a spell" (attempt to charm you somewhat). or, possibly more likely, you felt that way for him simply because you had disclosed so much of yourself to him..hence you felt an intimacy with him. or maybe he's just a d*mn charismatic guy, charming in his own right! know what i'm sayin girl? :)
<Anyway, enough of that. About being open to men right now, you say you aren't, and in many ways I'm not either, in fact, I haven't met a man I'm interested in saying more than two words to, in ages. And flirting is fun, even when I know I look like an easy time and the guy is just trying out his luck. Then it's easiest to walk away. 'Cause they're not the serious type. I really need the serious type, fun but serious, smart, no pretense.yes, i am also attracted to the serious type! i don't think playful, silly men really do it for me..not sure..
<99% of the men in this world base their entire existence on the pretense. My ex- calls it his "persona". Pppfffffft. In fact, you know the kind of guy who walks around thinking he's really hot?
too well
< You can see them a hundred yards away, and it doesn't matter how nice he turns out to be, his attitude is a total turn-off. And there isn't anything but Life that will take that out of a man. Once that's out of him, but he still cares about who he is, he's hot. I knew a man like that, once. He was in my mind I think. I made him up, but wow, was he ever Wonderful. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
i hear you, girl...mmmmmm..tasty...hehe ;)
amy;)
Posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:27
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » Susan47, posted by alesta on May 4, 2005, at 13:47:22
Silly and playful is good if it's done with passion. I think my T wasn't passionate, I think maybe he's not a passionate person, but I made him that way in my own mind because I am, you know? It's the passion I fell in love with, isn't that funny? That I created it then I fell in love with it. I am an extremely passionate person, but afraid that I do live it in every way possible, I do. I don't go out making an *ss of myself every day or anything, and there's lots I'd like to do but haven't done yet, but anything I do if I can't put myself completely into it I stop. I start and stop a lot of things. Most things, really. Because the passion in me is channelled into some very basic life experiences. The animal in my nature is close to the surface, and it fights my intellect all the time. Constantly, in fact.
It's a huge struggle for me. And why would I choose unattainable men as objects of my passion? Why??? Is this chance, what happened? Or a pattern? Could this man really be maybe very ordinary, an ordinary everyday joe type of guy? If he weren't sitting in that seat, talking to me in that voice, looking at me in that way, wouldn't he just be another person, like any other therapist I've ever seen? I have seen a few BTW. And pdocs as well. GP's, you name it, no man has reached so deeply into my soul and taken out so much feeling.
It's not right. To walk away from that, to do that to someone, then walk away.
It's like being violated, it's a violation, it's a crime, a break and enter. A moving violation, a hit and run.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 4, 2005, at 23:50:26
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 11:48:11
> See, this is where you and I part ways in our thinking. Or perhaps it's in our experience. No matter what the spell is that he wove, no matter what the magic, I still felt love. Love is a feeling. When you experience it, you know it. You never forget it. I felt love from another source, and whether that source was my mind or not, is completely irrelevant. I learned love, see? Period. Absolutely no mystery to that in itself. None.
Okay.
If you define love as an experience, as a feeling
Then you can't be mistaken as to whether you have that feeling / experience or not.So if you felt that feeling then you loved him.
Sure, I agree.I don't think love just is an experience or a feeling, though. IMO love is something that persists through time.
I reckon that your feeling / experience of love is based on transference.
It wouldn't persist over time if you guys did hook up.
You could say that you love him and then it disappears...
Or you could say that you never really were in love (you just thought you were but you were mistaken)
What you say depends on how you define love.All I mean to say is that you feel that way because of transference and the test of that would be whether the feeling would remain if you were to have an equal (or at least more equal) relationship with him.
I think the feeling would go away.
And thats why I want to say it is based on transference
Or that it isn't genuine love.I don't think it would persist.
Do you?
Posted by jay on May 5, 2005, at 0:03:08
In reply to cybersex, posted by alesta on April 30, 2005, at 21:56:25
well..there is only one way to address this thing....BRING IT ON BABY!! :-)I know....I sound like a male cyber-sl*t...but depression is so....looooonely!! :(
<sigh> Jay
Posted by Susan47 on May 5, 2005, at 0:21:44
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine), posted by alexandra_k on May 4, 2005, at 23:50:26
It doesn't really matter, it's not an issue and never has been. Whether it's "real" or not, is completely subjective. It really doesn't matter, in this particular case, whether I felt real love for this man or not. What matters is, I FELT .. truly, something beyond words and very beautiful, and I have hope and this THING in my heart.
Posted by Susan47 on May 5, 2005, at 9:29:42
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine), posted by alexandra_k on May 4, 2005, at 23:50:26
I also believe that love isn't consistent. It does come and go and we have control over that ourselves. When someone you love looks at you and you feel the love returned, it grows. The love grows and makes you love yourself, too. It's the same with hate. If someone hates me, I can feel that and it makes me angry and unhappy.. and I can act in hateful ways. Love works the same way, if I feel like I'm loved, then I'm happy and loving in return. Somehow, I'm able to love my children more effectively than I have before. I'm able to look at my ex- and appreciate things about him, even to feel kinship, without having to judge him for the things I don't like.
Maybe it's not love. Maybe this T gave me acceptance, for a brief period of time, maybe it was acceptance that was in the look. It doesn't really matter. The fact is that my life is better now and I have actually felt love, and it is really an incredible emotion. The emotion of love is full of hope, acceptance, and the desire to give the best of myself. Whew. It's confusing when it happens with a T.
Posted by alesta on May 5, 2005, at 19:06:53
In reply to Guy answer..., posted by jay on May 5, 2005, at 0:03:08
awww, jay.:) LOL i wasn't sending out invitations for cybersex, lol, but you really brightened my day.:-) and, of course, i am thrilled to have a professional male opinion on the subject.:) thanks for cheering up a grumpy malcontent like myself. you're great.:-)amy;)
Posted by alesta on May 5, 2005, at 19:29:17
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine), posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:27
hi sue,
> I think my T wasn't passionate, I think maybe he's not a passionate person, but I made him that way in my own mind because I am, you know? It's the passion I fell in love with, isn't that funny? That I created it then I fell in love with it.
hmmm..that it funny, susan. interesting. i know, i've created traits for people, too, i think..but that is so funny that you fell in love with a figment of your imagination..
<Silly and playful is good if it's done with passion.
yes, i agree.:)
<I am an extremely passionate person, but afraid that I do live it in every way possible, I do. I don't go out making an *ss of myself every day or anything, and there's lots I'd like to do but haven't done yet, but anything I do if I can't put myself completely into it I stop. I start and stop a lot of things. Most things, really. Because the passion in me is channelled into some very basic life experiences. The animal in my nature is close to the surface, and it fights my intellect all the time. Constantly, in fact.
i am very passionate, too! i understand exactly what you're saying. i could tell you were passionate..you are similar to me in that way.
> It's a huge struggle for me. And why would I choose unattainable men as objects of my passion? Why??? Is this chance, what happened? Or a pattern? Could this man really be maybe very ordinary, an ordinary everyday joe type of guy? If he weren't sitting in that seat, talking to me in that voice, looking at me in that way, wouldn't he just be another person, like any other therapist I've ever seen? I have seen a few BTW. And pdocs as well. GP's, you name it, no man has reached so deeply into my soul and taken out so much feeling.
thanks for the additional info, susan..it sounds like bloody chemistry (attraction) to me, if you haven't been attracted to other docs like that..and he might've assisted the chemistry by acting in subtly attractive ways..you know what i'm talking about..some guys/ppl put that vibe out there..are interested in making you attracted to them, for whatever reason, and some don't. (i say this assuming that it is not really about the variable of making your therapist more attractive in your own mind. is sounds now like it is more than that, perhaps..guessing..)
> It's not right. To walk away from that, to do that to someone, then walk away.
so you think it was the latter part of what i just said in the above paragraph..that he tried to act in subtly sexy ways? or do you think it was the former..that he just simply was sexy to you..(that there was simply chemistry there)?
> It's like being violated, it's a violation, it's a crime, a break and enter. A moving violation, a hit and run.
same question as above.
aim :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2005, at 23:56:18
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine), posted by Susan47 on May 5, 2005, at 0:21:44
> It really doesn't matter, in this particular case, whether I felt real love for this man or not. What matters is, I FELT .. truly, something beyond words and very beautiful, and I have hope and this THING in my heart.
Yeah.
Enjoy the feeling.
But maybe it would be less painful to think about how it wouldn't work (with him anyway) in reality.
I just mean that feelings and fantasy can be really wonderful.
But when it hurts too much...
That might be the time to reflect on whether that feeling would / could remain were you to have an ACTUAL relationship with him.
Posted by Susan47 on May 6, 2005, at 12:54:46
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » Susan47, posted by alesta on May 5, 2005, at 19:29:17
Now we're getting down to it, finally after a year of obfuscating now we're getting down to it, I am anyway. Yes, he just is that way. When he's in public he does everything possible to put his sexuality away. He locks it up, so to speak. To the point of, when I've seen him with his wife, he has his hands firmly in his pockets.
Oh yes.
He's a pocketer.
Posted by Susan47 on May 6, 2005, at 13:02:02
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on May 5, 2005, at 23:56:18
I said it to you another way on another board, I think, but the thing is, Alex, that honestly, I always knew he could be trusted with that. That even if he were attracted to a female patient, he might want to be a man, you know, but he wouldn't. He'd always be able to stop himself. I thought that anyway until I caught him staring at my boobs, which are not substantial, not at all, and always tucked in, you know? But this fascination on his face was unmistakable, and hilarious and really shocking, because I've honest to God never in my life EVER seen a guy with a look like that on his face, it was really revealing. So I thought, okay he's having a fascinating thought running through his mind right now, don't know what it is exactly, but he's honest. Look at that, that's honesty right there on his face. Boom. Then he caught himself and he got back to reality, it was like a line was drawn in his mind, and he looked like his usual molded self.
But the fact, you know, that a person could allow themself to be this comfortable in my presence, this open, that he would let a private thought just come up without consciously hiding it, well, that was nice.
But disconcerting.
Because I'm thinking, whoa, have I said too much? Have I revealed too much about myself, somehow, that now he thinks I'm a slut?
And I felt like a slut for a second. Really. And I had to pull hard, really really hard, to try and pull him back in my mind, from having done that.
I created all kinds of possible scenarios to justify the look he gave me. And for a long time I hassled him about the looks on his face at diferent times.
Oh, man.
This is really what it was all about, not all of it, but a lot of it. And it all must have to do with me.
Posted by Susan47 on May 6, 2005, at 13:44:33
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on May 6, 2005, at 13:02:02
You know, that pretty much confirms the way I've been with men, forever since I can remember. Let them get away with things, don't confront them about it because he'll be upset, angry, self-defensive and in the end he'll make it all about you.
And he did.
He did.I don't really think I like him very much, right now.
Posted by alesta on May 7, 2005, at 0:31:50
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » alesta, posted by Susan47 on May 6, 2005, at 12:54:46
> Now we're getting down to it, finally after a year of obfuscating now we're getting down to it
really? and it only took us a couple posts! cool!
i'm glad you have some closure susan..a year is an awfully long time to be trying to figure out a bloody man..:) it must have been some spell..:)
aim
Posted by alesta on May 7, 2005, at 2:13:18
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » alesta, posted by Susan47 on May 6, 2005, at 12:54:46
> Now we're getting down to it, finally after a year of obfuscating now we're getting down to it, I am anyway. Yes, he just is that way. When he's in public he does everything possible to put his sexuality away. He locks it up, so to speak. To the point of, when I've seen him with his wife, he has his hands firmly in his pockets.
> Oh yes.
> He's a pocketer.
hi susan dear didn't mean to imply closure on this thread where there was none indicated..i hardly slept at all last night (went to bed real late, mom made me get up super early, so skipped a night's sleep), so i'm not thinking super clearly this past 24 hours. aaaanyway.anyways, a pocketer, lol? i hate those. don't you?
whatever happened to dem tender moments?
i gotta go tuh bed..i wish somebody would send me to bed..i can't seem to do it myself..i am such a night owl it's awful..i can't keep staying up late and getting up early..it's not good for my complexion.;)
amy:)
Posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 10:36:51
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » Susan47, posted by alesta on May 7, 2005, at 2:13:18
You might need a mild hypnotic, I take one sometimes, every second or third night if I've been having trouble the night before, and they're helpful. Usually if I start having trouble with sleep, it continues for a few days, then abates a bit. A lot of exercise really helps. And reading in mid-afternoon can make me sleepy enough for a nap, which helps.
Posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 10:41:13
In reply to Re: ReFeeling sexual, Me too (whine) » Susan47, posted by alesta on May 7, 2005, at 0:31:50
This look that I'm talking about, well it happened in 2003, September or October. And after that I just went off the deep end. I don't know how much of it had to do with him, how much with me, and I can tell you this much: he was an *ss for ignoring what he did, for not confronting it squarely and honestly with me, for not acknowledging his contribution to my problems. I believe I tried to make him suffer, to make him pay for that look and the fact that he never had the courage to acknowledge his error.
Posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 14:34:12
In reply to He wasn't just a Man, He was my Therapist!, posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 10:41:13
I finally picked up this book "In Session" and it's frightening how ignorant my T was, until too far along in the relationship, of what he was doing.. it says here, "Some have used suggestive, even coercive, techniques to gain complaince, modify behavior, or convert a client to their way of thinking. They have directed therapy toward goals that were not disclosed, let alone negotiated, with the client, seemingly under the assumption that the therapist knows best."
Several months after he terminated me by telephone, I asked him, "What were you trying to do, in therapy with me?"
His answer?
"I was trying to build your trust"
By staring at my chest, dear Doctor?
By dressing to the nines because I had, one day, come in and confessed my love to you? Did you think that would show me that I was important to you, too? Did you think you were dealing with a child? Because I'm quite capable of using language; aren't you? After I let you know, with my head-to-toe assessment of you, that I was definitely not impressed, you came in deliberately casually sloppy.
And finally, returned to "normal".
This T I was going to was so incredibly manipulative. I had to be that, too, in the end, and I Hated not being able to be honest with him. He was the best obfuscator ever .. I quote, "A client's negative feelings can be very threatening to a therapist."
That man terminated me because of my negative feelings.
He terminated me for all of my feelings.
He didn't know how to be honest with me, the idiot said this, "My machine only takes seven messages".
It was insulting to be lied to.
"I don't have any availability this week, I have nothing next week either"
I really don't think I liked the way he behaved.This relationship with a therapist is so important to me and I'm not the only one, I am so Normal it's beautiful, I love that, I wish I'd read this book a long time ago.
Thank you to this Board, thank you to every single one of you who brought that book, and so many others, to my attention.
Posted by 10derHeart on May 7, 2005, at 17:10:21
In reply to Re: He wasn't just a Man, He was my Therapist!, posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 14:34:12
It's quite extraordinary, that book...and it only gets better. So glad you're reading it. I am starting it again.
The normalizing that goes on as examples are given and you get EXACTLY what she's saying...I found it freeing.
Posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 20:06:21
In reply to Re: He wasn't just a Man, He was my Therapist! » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 7, 2005, at 17:10:21
The link didn't work, I didn't bother to doublecheck I'm going to do this again "In Session, The Bond Between Women and their Therapists"
Posted by Susan47 on May 8, 2005, at 0:06:28
In reply to Re: He wasn't just a Man, He was my Therapist!, posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 14:34:12
Relationship...
now this is an interesting concept. One that I have to say was completely accurate in the way my ex-T treated me. I remember asking him, when I called once, at the beginning of therapy, I called him and I was upset, and I asked him if he thought I was acting crazy, or crazy. Pause. He replies, "Not to ME you're not".
Right away, I'm thinking immediately, that was manipulative. That was a deliberate manipulation and he thinks I can't see it. Now that was really funny. If he'd even said those words without the emphasis on the ME, it would've been an awkward thing to have said. Because he's setting up my reliance on him. Right there. That was the beginning of me noticing. Well, maybe not. Maybe the beginning was the look of extreme interest on his face when he first saw me, then the eventual ignoring of me when my ex- was there, in therapy with me, together, at the beginning. I mean, no man has to look at a woman like that unless there's some intent to nonverbally express something. Which is like lying.
There were a lot of things. A lot of things. Here, something from this book, "'There are only two ways to do real damage to patients: seducing them and punishing them. If you do neither of those things, then you can't get into serious trouble.' (Seducing meant more than literally seducing them; it meant working to arouse their desire for you, their admiration for you, their dependence on you. Punishing meant anything, however subtle, calculated to hurt them.)"
This book reverberated with me, with my personal experience with this therapist.
Now I'm wondering, how many other women's he done this to? Who's he STILL doing it to?
It's absolutely no wonder I was having nightmares.
Posted by Susan47 on May 8, 2005, at 0:51:12
In reply to Seduction and Punishment in the Therapeutic, posted by Susan47 on May 8, 2005, at 0:06:28
He acted differently, as well, very differently, when he was alone in the office versus when a partner was in.
Cold and withdrawn when the partner was in.
More open and kinder, gentler, when alone.
As though, in his own mind, he was doing something wrong.
After awhile, that's how it became, I'm convinced of it now.
Especially because of the time I came in dressed a certain way, you know, and he was .. different in some very obvious ways. He'd have to be an idiot to not know what he was doing in the looks he gave and the voice, how his voiced changed, more than subtly. Obviously. So he didn't have very good control. And in the beginning he didn't try very hard to have control, either, because I honestly believe at this time, anyway, because I have no evidence to the contrary, I believe that he didn't think I'd ever be a threat to his chastity. Somehow I believe he thought he was impervious. I have to admit I was mousier, in the beginning, I'd learned to become that again, in my beaten-up emotional state. And he knows a beaten woman when he sees one, let's be realistic about this. he knew what he was doing, on some level he had to have known. All the signs were there, it was too obvious.
And me, being so used to male-egocentricities and feeding into them, allowed him, I allowed him to get away with it to a point where my tolerance snapped, and I snapped, in a way, as well.These things are all true, I don't know why I never admitted it to my consciousness like this before. Well, I did. I was just afraid to say it, I was so afraid to say everything. But I'm not scared anymore. I might be dead someday soon because I can imagine a psychopathic type of person would want to do me in after this, and maybe that sounds paranoid, but stranger things have happened. That's certain.
This guy when I think about it, really, kind of scares me.
But I have to maintain more control. He's hurt me already, and I somehow was able to help myself in spite of him. In spite of him, and he knows it, he acknowledged it to me after termination, once, in his office, standing there at his counter. He said that, he said, "No, you made it work for you," in response to my statement that whatever he'd done, in spite of all the pain it was causing me, it was helping it make me better.What I'm finding really interesting about all of this is that in finding this therapist, in finding someone and wanting to attach to him so much, I've exactly repeated the abusive patterns in my relationships with my father and my two exes, all men in my life. I found probably one of the few men in town who really do silently and stealthily, VERY stealthily, prey on women. My God.
It's eerie, it's not something I've created, it's real. This guy may think he has good intentions, that's what is really scary. To be that unaware.. is he? I really have to wonder about that.
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