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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on December 1, 2004, at 9:40:35
I remembered I hadn't replied to a question of yours. Partly because I have the attention span of a flea these days, and it's hard to retain anything in my brain. And partly because I didn't know how to answer.
I think that what's confusing you is that my emotional self is not obviously a certain age, and acknowledges my chronological age?
Yes, my emotional side is more.... hmmm.... It's still hard to explain. My emotional side functions more in the world than most inner child ego states do? Does that sound right?
Does that fall outside the range of what your therapist deals with?
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 1, 2004, at 17:59:47
In reply to Pfinstegg?, posted by Dinah on December 1, 2004, at 9:40:35
No, he doesn't really pin feelings down by ages. He's really interested in feeling-states which are cut-off from the adult me.The two biggest ones are the terror of abandonment (nothing new there for any of us!) and terror over abuse. Now, even leaving a session is very hard- a cause for immense sadness. A year ago, I sailed through those! And a year ago, I told what I could remember of the abuse in a rather detached manner. Now, I erupt into massive amounts of terror, rage and shame- often directed at HIM. We almost reach a pre-verbal level of feeling, which is why he has asked me if I would like to add on art therapy for a while- it really seems like a good idea, so I'm going to give it a try next week.
I guess I'm so regressed and non-verbal right now that I am not posting in my usual rather lengthy manner! I'm reading faithfully, though, and do really care about what is happening with everyone- you, especially, because I know a lot of very painful things are happening to your parents and in-laws.
Posted by Daisym on December 1, 2004, at 20:23:59
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg? » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 1, 2004, at 17:59:47
I just wanted to chime in and offer support for that really regressed state. It can be so painful. I think I was shaken (not stirred) out of mine for the time being, but there remains a strange echo, sort of a loneliness for the potential, not the actual painful feelings. I don't know if that makes any sense.
I'm glad you are going to use art therapy. It should be fun and safe. In my class, one of the things we did was crayon strokes on huge paper - wide arms with eyes closed. It felt great. Your therapist really sounds great and like he knows what he is doing. Hopefully he will create art with you, not just look at yours.
I can see it now, posted on your refrig! :)
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 1, 2004, at 22:25:35
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg? » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 1, 2004, at 17:59:47
Wow sounds intense P I have noticed you aren't posting much it was good to see you...What kind of art therapy did he say? Tell him I said you can draw clothes for me :)
> No, he doesn't really pin feelings down by ages. He's really interested in feeling-states which are cut-off from the adult me.The two biggest ones are the terror of abandonment (nothing new there for any of us!) and terror over abuse. Now, even leaving a session is very hard- a cause for immense sadness. A year ago, I sailed through those! And a year ago, I told what I could remember of the abuse in a rather detached manner. Now, I erupt into massive amounts of terror, rage and shame- often directed at HIM. We almost reach a pre-verbal level of feeling, which is why he has asked me if I would like to add on art therapy for a while- it really seems like a good idea, so I'm going to give it a try next week.
>
> I guess I'm so regressed and non-verbal right now that I am not posting in my usual rather lengthy manner! I'm reading faithfully, though, and do really care about what is happening with everyone- you, especially, because I know a lot of very painful things are happening to your parents and in-laws.
Posted by Dinah on December 2, 2004, at 14:30:39
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg? » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 1, 2004, at 17:59:47
Art therapy sounds interesting. Though I would of course refuse.
I would say that there are some age related features to my ego states, but they aren't the most prominent differences. The most prominent differences are the emotional vs. rational divide. But yes, my emotional state definitely has a younger look and younger reactions. Also different posture and ways of speaking.
Not rage though. At least not with my therapist. My rational side tells him off from time to time, but my emotional self rarely gets angry with him. I definitely turn all anger towards my self.
He's the only remaining connection left for my emotional self. The only attachment. The only source of support. My support stool has lost two of its three legs. I'm hoping the puppies will grow up to provide a second one. But I think it is now and always has been way too scary to be angry with him. If I don't have him, I'll have no one.
Posted by Aphrodite on December 2, 2004, at 19:51:03
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg? » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 1, 2004, at 17:59:47
It sounds like a painful time for you. I've just tapped into a very young, preverbal part of me, and it scares me to death to even think about the intensity of those emotions. How does your T handle your terror over the separation at the end of a session?
I hope you post about the art therapy. Sounds intriguing.
I wish you well.
Posted by Aphrodite on December 2, 2004, at 19:53:23
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg? » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on December 2, 2004, at 14:30:39
Dinah, I am so sorry that your T is your only emotional support right now. I know that makes things very vulnerable for you. It makes it hard to take risks. Have you ever told your T he is your only emotional connection right now? It might help him with providing support and gentleness at this time for you.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 2, 2004, at 19:58:14
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg?, posted by Daisym on December 1, 2004, at 20:23:59
I remember when you did a weekend of art therapy, and that you felt that you got a lot out of it. Did you ever do it again? My T actually has an art therapist he has worked closely with for several years, and with whom he has published two papers. I thought this was very unusual(and very interesting) for a psychoanalyst!
I think he was hoping that I would do it now, as I am more regressed, (and less defended) than I was, and have better access to a lot of painful feelings which are hard to put into words. The way he works, he and the art therapist confer on an as-needed basis- I think mostly when the art therapist has something she wants to tell him. He doesn't actually look at the art itself, but relies on the therapist. I think he feels that he is more of a verbal person, and that she can provide him with insights which will help him in his work with me.
I do know what you mean about gaining and losing access to the regressed parts of ourselves; sometimes one does feel sort of a loss when those parts become inaccessible. I guess that's one of the biggest reasons therapists like yours and mine prefer to see patients with trauma and dissociative states frequently. Mine likes to do it five times a week, if patients can afford it- and he tries to be as flexible as he's able to be about fees. I'm so grateful for the huge commitment these therapists make to us, and know you are, too.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 2, 2004, at 20:05:42
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg? » Pfinstegg, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 1, 2004, at 22:25:35
Hi! I know if you went to art therapy, you'd be terrific with the clothes!. I feel more like working with clay- mud, even better, to express the rage I'm beginning to feel at what was done to me. I'm going to choose the messiest, darkest thing available to start with.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 2, 2004, at 20:31:25
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg? » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on December 2, 2004, at 14:30:39
Even though some of the emotional parts you are talking about sound very young and painful, they also sound so valuable to you. Especially when you are hoping for your puppies to grow enough to form a real connection to you.
If I'm completely wrong here, I know you'll tell me, but I had the sense that you were afraid that you would lose your emotional self entirely, and just be rational- that's it's very important to you to have the feeling connections. If that's true, i can really empathize with it, as I am also afraid, sometimes, that it's very dangerous to feel loving, dependent, fearful or angry towards my T. Anger, especially- really dangerous!
Early in analysis, I got very angry at my T. It was a transference from something painful that had just happened before the session, but I lost sight of that, and was just enraged at him- swearing, even! (I don't even do that in daily life). I caught him completely off-guard, and he reacted with a rather hostile silence. Later on, he brought it up, saying that he had made a mistake, and wished that he had been able to contain and help me with my feelings, instead of taking it personally. Well, a year later, I'm cautiously allowing myself to get angry at him; he doesn't take it personally now, but knows I'm expressing rage, through him, at my parents. Just this week he said, "I'm glad you gave me a second chance with your anger, because it's so important for you to get it out." It was so poignant to me, because, despite all his training, he can be hurt like anyone else- and he can also move towards being tremendously helpful with that most threatening of emotions. It has actually had the effect of deepening our connection, which I am so grateful for.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 2, 2004, at 20:51:17
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg? » Pfinstegg, posted by Aphrodite on December 2, 2004, at 19:51:03
I agree- it's so scary!. If we just talk about it, as adults, it doesn't seem to amount to much of anything. But if our therapists help us get in touch with these early parts, the feelings just get overwhelming and terrifying. At first, I thought I was getting even worse, because I just couldn't tolerate the feelings. But the T helps so much, little by little, sharing the feelings so they are a little more bearable.
He takes it very seriously- the leaving- and makes sure we talk about just how it feels, even though it's just the same stuff every time. About half the time, I think we both feel that we've worked on it enough for me to leave knowing he's still there, and that I'll be back. Those times, we just say a friendly goodbye. Other times, he intervenes more, saying (to the young me) "I am your doctor- I am here for you emotionally- not just in the room with you. We only interrupt our work temporarily- then we always begin again". I can see how hard he works to let this young part know that he knows leaving is heartbreaking for her. I appreciate that so much, and, per his instructions, try to comfort her by reminding her of his words and efforts- that really does help.
Posted by Dinah on December 2, 2004, at 23:14:41
In reply to Emotional states- Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 2, 2004, at 20:31:25
It sounds like a very intense time for you right now. One that it's probably impossible to reach on an infrequent session basis. I think it's great you're able to go more often, and can take advantage of the frequency by going deeper. Of course, I know it's also painful. But I know your therapist can help support you through that pain.
I've actually cut back to twice a week and am considering once. It seems that once I leave his office it feels like a million years since I saw him, so it really makes no difference when I next see him.
And yes, that scares me. The rational side of me is darn convenient to have when things are rough. But I know how easy it is to lose the emotional side entirely, and how very hard it is to get back once it's lost.
I'd go more often, but that doesn't seem to do any good. I *am* terrified of losing the feeling connections. It seems as if connections to others is what keeps me (or at least my emotional side) anchored to this world. Without them I can float away. I fear I'm in real danger of floating, and don't have much energy left for fighting to relationship.
Posted by daisym on December 3, 2004, at 0:51:25
In reply to Pre-verbal feelings » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on December 2, 2004, at 20:51:17
<<<I appreciate that so much, and, per his instructions, try to comfort her by reminding her of his words and efforts- that really does help
>>>I'm glad you can comfort her (your young girl). I just can't do that yet. I told my therapist today that not only did little daisy feel abandoned, but he had left her alone with ME. And I didn't want/didn't know how to comfort her. In fact, I was really upset with her for bringing this down on "us". And he just quietly said, "like your dad left you with your mom, who didn't know how to comfort you..."Was there ever a time when you couldn't do this? I guess I'm looking for hope that at some point I will stop wishing that she (and her pain) would just go away and I'll offer her comfort. I can't yet.
Posted by Daisym on December 3, 2004, at 10:25:29
In reply to Art Therapy - Fallen » Fallen4MyT, posted by Pfinstegg on December 2, 2004, at 20:05:42
Can you talk to me about these angry feelings? I'm really terrified of being angry about any of it, past or present, so when I feel twinges I shut down. My therapist mentioned in passing that this was part of what brought on such a big crash for me last week.
I need to ask him what he meant. But I'm afraid it will release them again. I actually dreamed about it all night long, at one point I had a sign I was walking around, like a picket line, that said "I hate my inner child."
Heavens.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2004, at 11:44:12
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on December 3, 2004, at 0:51:25
We're no different, Daisy. There are times that I am enraged at things my younger parts feel or say. I seem to take my mother's point of view, and say, or even shout, things like, "she's disgusting!", "get rid of her!" At times like those, my analyst tries to show me, and the younger parts, how gently he wants to treat them. On days like those, he talks about my trying to understand and empathize with their point of view when I'm on my own, without him, At first, I thought it was sort of fake, and didn't want to even try to do it. However, when I finally began to try to do that, I was amazed at how much better it made me feel. He REALLY supports that, saying things like, "I know she appreciates how you are trying to empathize with her."
Another thing we have somehow begun to do is a sort of imaginary play therapy. I try to allow myself to be one of my younger selves, and then see what follows. Sometimes I end up on the floor, inviting my analyst to play various games with pretend animals, sticks, stones, earth, mud, flowers, etc. He enters right in- even getting down on the floor himself-after asking my permission. It sounds completely nutty to talk about, but it's really wonderful to do- the child part gets to express her pain, and things she's worried about, but then- the wonderful part, she gets to invent and imagine better solutions for things. He acts in such a natural, spontaneous manner- just reacting moment to moment as if he really were with six year old
pfinstegg. We are both definitely middle-aged, so..!I think that's why the art therapy has come up at this point- another way for the young parts to be there, express themselves, and search for better interpersonal and emotional solutions than she found in reality long ago.
I think the hardest thing to do is to maintain hope through all of this- as you said. In a way, we're sort of falling apart in the hope of getting back together later in a healthier way. I have more ways of sustaining hope myself, now, but when I don't, my dear analyst says, "'I'll have it for both of us."
Posted by Aphrodite on December 3, 2004, at 11:55:44
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings- the different parts » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2004, at 11:44:12
Your analyst sounds absolutely wonderful! What a gift to be able to interact and comfort all the different parts of you. He sounds innovative and "out of the box." (I know that's an overused term, but sometimes it fits!)
I think where I am lacking sometimes is having the needs of "everyone" met in a session. A lot of my post-therapy fallout has to do with parts of me who didn't get their say. We are working on an "executive" part of me to help integrate and speak for everyone and maintain a priority list. She is also learning to be my T when I can't be with him. The learning curve is huge, though! In my more worried moments, I feel like he's pushing me out of the nest too soon, that I still need him to do a lot of the caretaking. That's just my insecurity speaking again.
Thanks, Pfinstegg, I love your posts and the descriptions of your sessions!
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2004, at 12:23:45
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on December 3, 2004, at 0:51:25
> not only did little daisy feel abandoned, but he had left her alone with ME.
Oooh, Daisy. I know it's not funny, but I still snorted in recognition when I saw that. It's soooo like something I would say. :)
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2004, at 12:24:15
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2004, at 12:23:45
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2004, at 12:27:56
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings- the different parts » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2004, at 11:44:12
I'm unsuccessfully trying to imagine my therapist doing something like that. :)
I didn't even have the nerve to tell him my fantasy of sitting on the floor by my knee.
He did offer to let me tape record the sessions while I'm having so much trouble hanging on to him between sessions. And I took the opportunity to screw up my courage and ask if I could take a photo of him to remind me when I can't hang on myself. He said yes. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2004, at 12:32:28
In reply to Re: Emotional states- Dinah » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on December 2, 2004, at 23:14:41
Dinah, losing your feelings and vital self and your connection to your therapist just won't happen permanently. What you're describing sounds like a stress-based result of the terrible things happening to your parents, and all the fall-out on you, your husband and son. It's too much. It sounds like your whole nervous system is to the point where it has to shut down- the "escape when there is no escape". Our brains do this in catastrophic times if we are vulnerable, as you, and I, and many of us here are. It's probably going to be a while before you can feel the way you did before your parents got so ill, but you will get there. All the changes you have made over the years are there permanently- I believe- (and I've read this a lot also) but right now you are in a real crisis. Alan Schore describes this as a sudden parasympathetic reaction, which happens after our brains have become exhausted by long-term sympathetic over-arousal. When it happens, people feel sort of detached, indifferent and hopeless- a horrible set of feelings. Please don't lessen your visits right now, but don't expect yourself to react as you usually do. Just let yourself be there with him, and let him know what has happened. I hope you'll be really good to yourself- just doing whatever will permit some rest and recovery. You'll find your self again when the stress is less, but I know it's very uncertain when that will be.
Posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2004, at 12:35:26
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings- the different parts » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2004, at 12:27:56
OOOOH! I want to see the picture!!!
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2004, at 12:54:48
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings- the different parts » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2004, at 12:35:26
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2004, at 13:03:09
In reply to Re: Emotional states- Dinah » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2004, at 12:32:28
That actually resonates with me, Pfinstegg. Thank you.
I think I'll print it out and bring it to my therapist. He has his own theories that have to do with abandoning him before he abandons me along the lines of Harry dying, and my father in the process of dying, and Partlycloudy's therapist retiring. That doesn't resonate with me at all.
I'm trying to keep hope about it, because the only other time this happened it lasted for a quarter century or so. I don't have another quarter century. :)
Posted by vwoolf on December 3, 2004, at 13:23:51
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings- the different parts » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2004, at 12:27:56
Gosh it's funny. I have been following your conversation about other states and child parts for months without really understanding what you were saying - it seemed very remote and fanciful. Suddenly I know exactly what it is all about. It is so real.
My T talks about recognising five or six different child parts in my interaction with her. I only really feel sceptical "adult" and pathetic "child" for the moment, but this child part seems to have so many needs and moods and requests.
I asked if I could sit on the floor a while ago - she looked horrified, and offered the couch or her chair instead, so I now always sit in her chair. But the floor looks so inviting. She is a child psychologist, and there are lots of toys around the room. Sometimes I cradle one when I'm feeling very much in touch with my child part, but what I really want to play with is the anatomical dolls. But I don't dare. Or sit and scribble at the little table. Perhaps I should ask again.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 3, 2004, at 13:38:00
In reply to Re: Pre-verbal feelings- the different parts, posted by vwoolf on December 3, 2004, at 13:23:51
How neat that she has all the stuff in there to play with! Maybe you can ask her again- perhaps tell her that you know she needs time to be ready, too. You could do it bit by bit- maybe start in the chair while holding the anatomical doll. Even though I know the thought is a bit comical and absurd, you can tell her you know of a traditional (and quite eminent) psychoanalyst and middle-aged woman who have found their way safely to the floor!
I just read an article in Psychoanalytic Dialogues about what goes on in the play therapy of children suffering from PTSD- how valuable it is- and how it would be good if more adults got to do it.
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