![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 316 to 340 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:41:24
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 9:12:28
> sorry to post so much stuff....hope it's still of interest!
Ray,
Please don't apologize. It's definitely of interst. That's the problem - too much interest in things like this and not enough interest in the things I need to do.But getting back to the topic, this actually goes hand-in-hand with some of my questions about the safety of taking glutamine. If vitamin D can protect against the toxicity of glutamate, then I will feel less worried taking glutamine. Does vitamin D contain vitamin D3 or would one need to purchase Vitamin D3 specifically?
Thanks!
Kara
> Vitamin D(3) attenuates 6-hydroxydopamine-induced neurotoxicity in rats.
>
> Wang JY, Wu JN, Cherng TL, Hoffer BJ, Chen HH, Borlongan CV, Wang Y.
>
> Department of Physiology, National Defense Medical Center, Taipei, Taiwan.
>
> Previous reports have demonstrated that exogeneous administration of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) reduces ventral mesencephalic (VM) dopaminergic (DA) neuron damage induced by 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) lesioning in rats. Recent studies have shown that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (D3) enhances endogenous GDNF expression in vitro and in vivo. The purpose of present study was to investigate if administration of D3 in vivo and in vitro would protect against 6-OHDA-induced DA neuron injury. Adult male Sprague-Dawley rats were injected daily with D3 or with saline for 8 days and then lesioned unilaterally with 6-OHDA into the medial forebrain bundle. Locomotor activity was measured using automated activity chambers. We found that unilateral 6-OHDA lesioning reduced locomotor activity in saline-pretreated animals. Pretreatment with D3 for 8 days significantly restored locomotor activity in the lesioned animals. All animals were sacrificed for neurochemical analysis 6 weeks after lesioning. We found that 6-OHDA administration significantly reduced dopamine (DA), 3,4-dihydroxy-phenylacetic acid (DOPAC) and homovanilic acid (HVA) levels in the substantia nigra (SN) on the lesioned side in the saline-treated rats. D3 pretreatment protected against 6-OHDA-mediated depletion of DA and its metabolites in SN. Using primary cultures obtained from the VM of rat embryos, we found that 6-OHDA or H(2)O(2) alone caused significant cell death. Pretreatment with D3 (10(-10) M) protected VM neurons against 6-OHDA- or H(2)O(2)-induced cell death in vitro. Taken together, our data indicate that D3 pretreatment attenuates the hypokinesia and DA neuronal toxicity induced by 6-OHDA. Since both H(2)O(2) and 6-OHDA may injure cells via free radical and reactive oxygen species, the neuroprotection seen here may operate via a reversal of such a toxic mechanism.
>
>
> Protective effects of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) against the neurotoxicity of glutamate and reactive oxygen species in mesencephalic culture.
>
> Ibi M, Sawada H, Nakanishi M, Kume T, Katsuki H, Kaneko S, Shimohama S, Akaike A.
>
> Department of Pharmacology, Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Kyoto University, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501, Japan.
>
> This study was undertaken to determine whether 1 alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 [1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3)], an active metabolite of vitamin D, protects dopaminergic neurons against the neurotoxic effects of glutamate and dopaminergic toxins using rat mesecephalic culture. Brief glutamate exposure elicited cytotoxicity in both dopaminergic and non-dopaminergic neurons. Pretreatment, but not co-administration, of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) protected both types of neurons against the cytotoxicity of glutamate in a concentration- and time-dependent manner. The neuroprotective effect of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) was inhibited by the protein synthesis inhibitor, cycloheximide. To investigate the mechanisms of these neuroprotective effects, we examined the effects of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) on neurotoxicity induced by calcium ionophore and reactive oxygen species (ROS). Pretreatment with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) protected both types of neurons against the cytotoxicity induced by A23187 in a concentration-dependent manner. Furthermore, 24-h pretreatment with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) concentration-dependently protected both types of neurons from ROS-induced cytotoxicity. A 24-h incubation with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) inhibited the increase in intracellular ROS level following H(2)O(2) exposure. A 24-h exposure to 1-methyl-4-phenylpyridium ion (MPP(+)) or 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) exerted selective neurotoxicity on dopaminergic neurons, and these neurotoxic effects were ameliorated by 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3). These results suggest that 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) provides protection of dopaminergic neurons against cytotoxicity induced by glutamate and dopaminergic toxins by facilitating cellular functions that reduce oxidative stress.
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2004, at 2:44:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by tealady on October 22, 2004, at 4:15:58
> How are people supposed to know what is prescription only or OTC in the States anyway?
Good question, here's one list:
Bob
Posted by tealady on October 23, 2004, at 16:30:41
In reply to Re: what is prescription only or OTC, posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2004, at 2:44:32
> > How are people supposed to know what is prescription only or OTC in the States anyway?
>
> Good question, here's one list:
>
> http://www.fda.gov/cder/ob
>
> Bobgood link Bob. You're lucky it's the same in each state <g>.
It's not in Oz, different in the two states I have lived in.
Posted by tealady on October 23, 2004, at 19:57:48
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 18:02:06
> > >My own practitioner gave me something by jarrow called 'homocysteine pf' yesterday which helped me massively. I talked to her about my concerns about my poor methylation and how it's required for creatine prouction and acidity buffering - so we checked it out and found I was really high in folate (like Jan) but couldn't use it - homocysteine PF got my folate working (checked with kinesiology). As glutamine and methylation improve my fog too, I think part of the 'fogginess' may be because I'm too acid.
> >
> >
> > Hi Ray,
> > I looked up homocysteine PF by Jarrow yesterday(and had a glance at a few other supps you take too)
> > http://www.iherb.com/tmgb12b6tab.html
> >
> > Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCI) 15 mg 750%
> > Methyl B12 (Methylcobalamin)250 mcg 4167%
> > Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%
> > Trimethylglycine (TMG) 500 mg (Anhydrous Betaine)
> >
> > so it looks to me like it just has normal Folic acid in it..not the special form you mentioned(FOLINIC ACID (5-formyl tetrahydrofolate))
> > ..but it does have Betaine in the TMG form. Lar takes that on I think..the TMG.
> > Do you think it's the TMG?
> >
> > TMG is another I have to order from O'seas.> >
> > I was taking 500mcg Folic acid together with a multiB for a while..didn't notice any diff..in fact I feel a lot less panicy since dropping the CoQ10 and folic acid (labeled folate..folic acid 500mcg)and more able to cope with some tasks...not big tasks..little things like making a phone call.
> >
> > On another forum I remember now it was found we need NADPH and oxygen to break down glutiathone...bet I'm short there...everything abouyt me keeps coming up with a shortage of NADPH and oxygen, sigh.
> >
> > I'll find the link
> > http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.49
> >
> > oh yes you migh be interested in this too
> > http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.47 ..just to change the topic around
> > I'm a lot better off with more carbs..and I've found more since..just can't remember what or where now, sigh
> > Oh yes on not breaking down chloresterol..another thing I've got..something about the low carb diet preventing chloresterol catabolizing to CoQ10 I think from memory..won't change onto that one!
> >
> >
> > Just to be more complicated..I also have difficulty with all forms of B12..methylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin injections..my hands turn either bright red or a purply shade and tingly..same with my feet.
> > My Mum's hands go a bit red..not as severe as mine. Happens all the time..not as severe if I keep up with the injections but still happens..that's why when I got my B12 levels up I stopped! I even had multiB's made up w/o the B12 for a while just to see if I felt better.
> > I seem to be fine witha little cyanocobalamin that is in the multiB's over in Oz at present..well I don't notice much diff anyway.
> > This may possiby be a G6PD partial deficiency or perhaps that combined with methaemoglobulin problesm that I seeme to have after a dental anesthetic last year.
> > It's on the forum here last Sept.somewhere. If you have anything like that I could look up the posts..doubt it though. on the other had, if you know what it is, I'd love to know for sure!
> >
> > Found out I don't vasoconstrict...last hole I just skipped the anesthetic..drill felt exactly the same.
> > Today I found out I'm lowish on ADH (Vasopressin)..hence the too little vasoconstriction, sigh
> > yeah I learnt if one has a needle always get the adrenalaine..then take cortisol after I guess to lower it maybe...
> > Gee it makes it err challenging.
> >
> >
> > That's why I'm trying to go to uni to learn enough to figure it out..takes a long time though..especially when I can't just order the tests I need, sigh. Just wish I had a higher fraction of my old brain left to learn and think with.
> >
> > And all these things seem to cause a tad of anxiety, depression etc, LOL
> >
> > Jan
>
>
> Hi Jan, have got to get to bed, so can't answer all your questions today....but yes homocysteine pf only contains folate, but it works wonderfully for me, must be just a good balance for my system.
> I was wrong about folinic acid it's tetrahydrofolate, and not fully activated to it's methyl state. But folate to tetrahydrofolate still needs 4 NADPH molecules, and to make the methyl tetrahydrofolate in needs methyl B12, B2 and another NADPH. when folate is used, it then needs B6, manganese in one step, then B2, NADPH and methyl b12 again - if any one of these is in short supply, it all fails! If your low NADPH, that might be why methyl B12 causes a problem, it might accelerate the decline of NADPH?
----------------------------
****And it begins to come together....tada!****"In plants, FOLIC ACID is formed from a hetero-bicyclic pteride ring, paraaminobenzoic acid (PABA), and GLUTAMIC ACID (see Figure 2).
FOLATE is initially deconjugated in the cells of the intestinal wall to the MONOGLUTAMATE form. This is then reduced to dihydrofolate and then to tetrahydrofolate (THF) via folate and dihydrofolate reductase."Both of these enzymes require NADPH (niacin dependent) as a cofactor.
Serine combines with pyridoxal-5'-phosphate(P5P B6) to transfer a hydroxymethyl group to THF. This results in the formation of 5, 10-methylenetetrahydrofolate (methylene THF) and glycine. (see Figure 3) This molecule is of central importance, being the precursor of the metabolically-active 5- ethyltetrahydrofolate (5-methylTHF, which is involved in homocysteine metabolism) and methy-lidynetetrahydrofolate (involved in purine synthesis), as well as functioning on its own in the generation of THYMINE side chains for incorporation into DNA.Enzyme or cofactor deficiency needed for generation of active folic acid.
Folinic acid (5-formylTHF- available supplementally as calcium folinate—also known as leucovorin calcium) is an immediate precursor to 5, 10 methyleneTHF and 5- methylTHF. Folinic acid is more stable than folic acid and has a longer half-life in the body.
Folinic acid also readily crosses the bloodbrain barrier and is slowly cleared, compared to folic acid, which is poorly transported into the brain, and once in the CNS is rapidly cleared.15
so we have the betaine,
folic acid, glutamine(glutamic acid used in folate canversion)/glutamate ( monoglutamate form of folic acid),
NADPH( both enzymes require NADPH (niacin dependent) as a cofactor),
generation of thymine side chains
pyridoxal-5'-phosphate
methionine"Betaine supplementation has been shown to reduce homocysteine levels while resulting in modest increases of plasma serine and simultaneous increases of plasma cysteine levels.7 Serine levels are depressed in some individuals with excess homocysteine who are treated with folic acid, cobalamin, and vitamin B6"
"Because serine is required for:
1)the conversion of folic acid to its active form,
2) as a shuttle for methyl groups between the cytosol and the mitochondria, and
3) as a cofactor in the trans-sulfuration pathway of methionine/ homocysteine metabolism""Folinic acid also readily crosses the bloodbrain barrier and is slowly cleared, compared to folic acid, which is poorly transported into the brain, and once in the CNS is rapidly cleared."
http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/1-4/homocysteinemetabolism.pdf
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 14:22:01
In reply to Folic/Folinic acid,P5P,glutamine,betaine,methionin » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 23, 2004, at 19:57:48
>
> ****And it begins to come together....tada!****
>
> "In plants, FOLIC ACID is formed from a hetero-bicyclic pteride ring, paraaminobenzoic acid (PABA), and GLUTAMIC ACID (see Figure 2).
> FOLATE is initially deconjugated in the cells of the intestinal wall to the MONOGLUTAMATE form. This is then reduced to dihydrofolate and then to tetrahydrofolate (THF) via folate and dihydrofolate reductase."
>
> Both of these enzymes require NADPH (niacin dependent) as a cofactor.
> Serine combines with pyridoxal-5'-phosphate(P5P B6) to transfer a hydroxymethyl group to THF. This results in the formation of 5, 10-methylenetetrahydrofolate (methylene THF) and glycine. (see Figure 3) This molecule is of central importance, being the precursor of the metabolically-active 5- ethyltetrahydrofolate (5-methylTHF, which is involved in homocysteine metabolism) and methy-lidynetetrahydrofolate (involved in purine synthesis), as well as functioning on its own in the generation of THYMINE side chains for incorporation into DNA.
>
> Enzyme or cofactor deficiency needed for generation of active folic acid.
> Folinic acid (5-formylTHF- available supplementally as calcium folinate—also known as leucovorin calcium) is an immediate precursor to 5, 10 methyleneTHF and 5- methylTHF. Folinic acid is more stable than folic acid and has a longer half-life in the body.
> Folinic acid also readily crosses the bloodbrain barrier and is slowly cleared, compared to folic acid, which is poorly transported into the brain, and once in the CNS is rapidly cleared.15
>
>
> so we have the betaine,
> folic acid, glutamine(glutamic acid used in folate canversion)/glutamate ( monoglutamate form of folic acid),
> NADPH( both enzymes require NADPH (niacin dependent) as a cofactor),
> generation of thymine side chains
> pyridoxal-5'-phosphate
> methionine
>
> "Betaine supplementation has been shown to reduce homocysteine levels while resulting in modest increases of plasma serine and simultaneous increases of plasma cysteine levels.7 Serine levels are depressed in some individuals with excess homocysteine who are treated with folic acid, cobalamin, and vitamin B6"
>
> "Because serine is required for:
> 1)the conversion of folic acid to its active form,
> 2) as a shuttle for methyl groups between the cytosol and the mitochondria, and
> 3) as a cofactor in the trans-sulfuration pathway of methionine/ homocysteine metabolism"
>
> "Folinic acid also readily crosses the bloodbrain barrier and is slowly cleared, compared to folic acid, which is poorly transported into the brain, and once in the CNS is rapidly cleared."
>
> http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/1-4/homocysteinemetabolism.pdf
>
>
>
>Well done Jan, that's a brilliant article! Interesting the bit about SAM being needed for CoQ10 manufacture too - I wonder whether a CoQ10 supplement needs to be remethylated after a while, and if it can raise homocyteine?
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 14:49:45
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:07:06
> >
> So what's the point of taking captomer to prevent neurotoxicity if it can't get past the BBB?The autism people believe that it's important to remove mercury from the body before the brain, as they are concerned about transporting mercury into the brain, rather than out....not sure if any research is available though?
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:06:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:41:24
>
> Ray,
> Please don't apologize. It's definitely of interst. That's the problem - too much interest in things like this and not enough interest in the things I need to do.Ok, hope you manage to get stuff sorted!!
>
> But getting back to the topic, this actually goes hand-in-hand with some of my questions about the safety of taking glutamine. If vitamin D can protect against the toxicity of glutamate, then I will feel less worried taking glutamine. Does vitamin D contain vitamin D3 or would one need to purchase Vitamin D3 specifically?
Usually, the supplement says what kind of vitamin D it is - the biotics one I take is D3. The glutamine issue is so difficult. I've got a book called ""the brain wellness plan" and the only condition it says glutamine is a definite no for is ALS. His belief is that a lot of brian disorders start in the gut, and glutamine is essential for gut integrity - Like autism, I think my gut is the primary problem, and any brain stuff, is secondary. My moods do change with food, and I only really get depressed with pasta and alcohol - and I feel effects in the gut before the brain, but sometimes I forget this, and my brain fog did start around 10-12 years ago after a couple of years of IBS..This is what the book says....
"many brain-immune disorders are directly or indirectly related to dysfunctions in the GI tract - largely because your gut's failure to do it's job of utilizing nutrients and cleansing the body of harmful substances can result in inappropriate immune system activation."
Good luck with sorting things out, and no peeping at any posts!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:08:44
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 22, 2004, at 23:43:11
> HA! I didn't go to medical school so I am no expert, but I don't agree with your doctor's diagnosis.
He was a chain smoker, so should have realised subtle health issues might have been beyond him!
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:26:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:41:24
read the glutamine thread and dr mercola's article on it - mercola makes some good points, so going to be cautious with glutamine, and only use it if I feel my gut needs it!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:51:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:08:44
although mainly suggested for grave's disease lemon balm sounds interesting - say's it can lower TSH, anyone heard of it?
Posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:24:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:06:15
> >
> > Ray,
> > Please don't apologize. It's definitely of interst. That's the problem - too much interest in things like this and not enough interest in the things I need to do.
>
> Ok, hope you manage to get stuff sorted!!
>
>
> >
> > But getting back to the topic, this actually goes hand-in-hand with some of my questions about the safety of taking glutamine. If vitamin D can protect against the toxicity of glutamate, then I will feel less worried taking glutamine. Does vitamin D contain vitamin D3 or would one need to purchase Vitamin D3 specifically?
>
>
> Usually, the supplement says what kind of vitamin D it is - the biotics one I take is D3. The glutamine issue is so difficult. I've got a book called ""the brain wellness plan" and the only condition it says glutamine is a definite no for is ALS. His belief is that a lot of brian disorders start in the gut, and glutamine is essential for gut integrity - Like autism, I think my gut is the primary problem, and any brain stuff, is secondary. My moods do change with food, and I only really get depressed with pasta and alcohol - and I feel effects in the gut before the brain, but sometimes I forget this, and my brain fog did start around 10-12 years ago after a couple of years of IBS..
>
> This is what the book says....
>
> "many brain-immune disorders are directly or indirectly related to dysfunctions in the GI tract - largely because your gut's failure to do it's job of utilizing nutrients and cleansing the body of harmful substances can result in inappropriate immune system activation."
>
> Good luck with sorting things out, and no peeping at any posts!
>
> Ray
>Ray,
I've been trying to limit myself to answering and finishing up previous posts to me on all boards and to starting new posts on the main board having to do with the decision I must make soon about staying on or discontinuing Cymbalta. (I'm leaning towards discontinuing but that's another story.) It's so hard to do all of my chores and job hunting when what I really want to do is spend all of my time here trying to figure everything out so I can "cure" myself (not to mention the great company and support here).I think that I have read "The Brain Wellness Plan". I should look at it again now though since I know much more than when I read it before.
I am so amazed at how you've been able to determine cause and effect in your life and in how you've been able to so clearly identify your reactions to various supplements.
In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise. I had considered that adrenal fatigue was the culprit but I don't feel bad during exercise or immediately afterwards. It's only later on that I feel the need to sleep. I'm certain now that the exercise boosts dopamine and those darn autoreceptors overreact. Now I'm wondering if the receptor problem was caused by years of viral CFS, inflammation issues, and/or years of SSRI usage. If it's the latter then maybe I should not continue on the Cymbalta (even though it also targets NE).
OK, not doing so well on the staying away from posting ... but this is still responding to old posts, right?
Take care,
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:32:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:26:51
> read the glutamine thread and dr mercola's article on it - mercola makes some good points, so going to be cautious with glutamine, and only use it if I feel my gut needs it!
>
> RayThanks for the feedback. I wish I could trust my gut as much you can with yours!
P.S. Re: my previous post, have you ever read "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD? If so, what did you think of it?
Posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:23:35
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:24:15
>In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise
Hi Kara, I know no posting...same here ..supposed to start studying.
Just I wonder if we have something the same going on here.Firstly are you on any form of thyroid hormones at all..like T4, T3 or Armour and if so what?
Here's why. I get lost with this, but my first reaction whan I started on Armour (which contains T3) but not on T4 meds was maybe something like a cholinergic drug drug for my bladder.I'm really lost here..the bladder nurse just told me a month oor so ago that my reaction were the same as happens occasionally for those taking cholinergic drugs.
I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grrSo with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
Really I'm so lost here??Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
Also I'm lost with this "hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors" too <g>.. If I say take some tyrosine I get a strong dopamine-like reaction maybe, like I can kinda "trip" on say 2g of tyrosine ..if that's what you mean ? I also get very tired after exercise, need to sleep for a day or two to feel good again..or doing anything actually <g>
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:41:57
In reply to Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » karaS, posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:23:35
I used to get hives when I was about 12..I thought from long grass..but that was also just before I developed the darkened skin on knees and skin that didn't glow right etc..which is kinda low adrenal symptoms, and just at beginning of that puberty stage where the low thyroid could have started.
Strange how they are linka linked like...the immune and hormones and neurotransmitters..
Is cholinergic urticaria like heat rash or something different?
Posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 23:12:55
In reply to Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » karaS, posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:23:35
> >In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise
>
> Hi Kara, I know no posting...same here ..supposed to start studying.
> Just I wonder if we have something the same going on here.
>
> Firstly are you on any form of thyroid hormones at all..like T4, T3 or Armour and if so what?
> Here's why. I get lost with this, but my first reaction whan I started on Armour (which contains T3) but not on T4 meds was maybe something like a cholinergic drug drug for my bladder.
>
> I'm really lost here..the bladder nurse just told me a month oor so ago that my reaction were the same as happens occasionally for those taking cholinergic drugs.
>
> I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
> I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grr
>
> So with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
> have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
> Really I'm so lost here??
>
> Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
>
> Also I'm lost with this "hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors" too <g>.. If I say take some tyrosine I get a strong dopamine-like reaction maybe, like I can kinda "trip" on say 2g of tyrosine ..if that's what you mean ? I also get very tired after exercise, need to sleep for a day or two to feel good again..or doing anything actually <g>
>
> Jan
Hi Jan,I shouldn't be checking this board now but here I am.....
Cholinergic urticaria is a condition where your body becomes allergic to it's own sweat from overheating. When I exercise, after I've warmed up a bit, I start itching like crazy - like I could rip my flesh off it's so extreme. I've learned that it's an autoimmune response. I just noticed it within the last couple of years. I don't understand why they call it "cholinergic" or how choline fits into the picture. I would think it should be called "histaminic urticaria". Maybe someone else could shed some light here. I do have thyroid problems and I've taken both Armour and plain T4 but it doesn't have any impact on this condition. I don't think that our conditions are related at all. I do hope you get some relief with your situation though.
As for the hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors, that's something I've just started learning about. Todd (King Vultan) on the main board explained it to me. I had some surprising paradoxical reactions to dopaminergic meds and supplements. They all put me to sleep. This is generally thought to be a result of super sensitive (or too many or too dense) dopamine receptors. When most people get certain areas of their brains flooded with dopamine, they react as you would generally expect from stimulants. Those of us with this problem have receptors that are working overtime. My very crude understanding of the situation is that these receptors serve as a feedback mechanism. They sense too much dopamine and pull it out of there quickly leaving you with too little and therefore, they put you to sleep. Since I have anergic depression, I have been counting on dopaminergic augmentation. It has left me rather desperately trying to understand it all and find a way (if possible) to treat it. At least I understand now why I have no motivation! Hope that helps you to understand it.
Ok, go study!
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 23:14:38
In reply to Hives, posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:41:57
> I used to get hives when I was about 12..I thought from long grass..but that was also just before I developed the darkened skin on knees and skin that didn't glow right etc..which is kinda low adrenal symptoms, and just at beginning of that puberty stage where the low thyroid could have started.
>
> Strange how they are linka linked like...the immune and hormones and neurotransmitters..
>
> Is cholinergic urticaria like heat rash or something different?
>
Yeah, it's supposed to be the hives that I'm scratching but you can hardly notice any hives.
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 4:24:39
In reply to Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » karaS, posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:23:35
> I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
> I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grr
>
> So with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
> have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
> Really I'm so lost here??
>
> Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
Hi Jan,
From what I've read just now on the net, acetylcholine causes contraction of the bladder muscles to initiate urination....is that how you see it too?
Found this abstract about thyroid and bladder...
Influence of the thyroid state on the intrinsic contractile properties of the bladder muscle.
Department of Human Physiology, Faculty of Medical Sciences, University of Jos, Nigeria.The role of thyroid hormones on the contractile responses of the isolated rat urinary bladder strips to acetylcholine and potassium chloride (in depolarising Tyrode solution) was examined. Chronic administration of thyroxine (6-8 micrograms/100 g body wt/day) for 15 days caused stimulation of acetylcholine and potassium chloride-induced contractile responses of the rat urinary bladder strip. Thyroidectomy caused inhibition of acetylcholine and potassium chloride-induced contractile responses of the rat urinary bladder strip. These findings suggest that the thyroid state affects the intrinsic contractile state of bladder muscle.
and this about minerals that help with acetylcholine....
Effect of ions on the efflux of acetylcholine from peripheral nerve.
Dettbarn WD, Rosenberg P.
Department of Neurology, College of Physicians and Surgeons of Columbia University, New York, USA.
The nerves from the walking leg of lobster released acetylcholine (ACh) even when the ends were tied off, although this release was significantly increased when the nerve endings were not tied. The resting nerves were kept in sea water containing physostigmine. In absence of physostigmine no ACh was found in the surrounding fluid. Removal of Ca from the sea water reduced the release of ACh, while increased concentrations of Ca had no significant effect. Removal of Mg++ or increased Mg++ concentrations in the presence of normal Ca++ concentrations increased the release of ACh. Increased K+ concentrations had a stimulating action on the efflux of ACh. Increased or reduced Na+ concentrations had only slight effects on the release of ACh in resting lobster nerve. During the 4 hr observation period the excised nerves were still able to synthesize ACh. The choline acetylase activity was stimulated by increased concentrations of Mg++ and K+. The effects of ions on the release of ACh are similar to those reported at the junction.
also phosphatidyl choline is a good source of choline for acetylcholine, B5 is needed along with manganese for the production too.
The enzyme which breaks down acetetylcholine is called acetylcholinesterase - pesticides and deadly nightshade foods contain inhibitors.
Vitamin B1 deficiency and alcohol consumption adversely affect acetylcholine (B1 is also needed to make NADPH)
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 7:34:14
In reply to Re: Hives » tealady, posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 23:14:38
> > I used to get hives when I was about 12..I thought from long grass..but that was also just before I developed the darkened skin on knees and skin that didn't glow right etc..which is kinda low adrenal symptoms, and just at beginning of that puberty stage where the low thyroid could have started.
> >
>interesting article on histamine, hives etc..
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1034/j.1398-9995.2002.1r3542.x/full/
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:46:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:24:15
>
> I am so amazed at how you've been able to determine cause and effect in your life and in how you've been able to so clearly identify your reactions to various supplements.It's taken around ten years to get somewhere, and there'e been a lot of trial and error - I've tended to try things, see how they feel, then try to work out why. Over the last few years, I've learnt to feel things to save money! Does it make my head feel better or worse when I hold it - get some strange looks in the health food shop!
>
> In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise. I had considered that adrenal fatigue was the culprit but I don't feel bad during exercise or immediately afterwards. It's only later on that I feel the need to sleep. I'm certain now that the exercise boosts dopamine and those darn autoreceptors overreact. Now I'm wondering if the receptor problem was caused by years of viral CFS, inflammation issues, and/or years of SSRI usage. If it's the latter then maybe I should not continue on the Cymbalta (even though it also targets NE).I worry about the reuptake inhibitors because several studies claim that dopamine and noradrenaline become neurotoxic if not safely detoxified... from the following article, it seems that drugs ought to be given along side glutathione!
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:57:38
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:32:02
>
> P.S. Re: my previous post, have you ever read "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD? If so, what did you think of it?
Looked up an extract on amazon - some of the ideas looked good advice, but a lot of the supplements he suggests I feel worse on!
phosphatidyl serine, acetyl-l-carnitine, DMAE and green tea all worsen my symptoms. Pushing acetylcholine, for me, seems to give me an excitotoxic reaction (ie, massive headache!).Please don't feel obliged to answer if you haven't time!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 12:33:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:57:38
tourette's and dopamine supersensitivity!
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 12:35:50
In reply to Re: Hives » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 7:34:14
> > > I used to get hives when I was about 12..I thought from long grass..but that was also just before I developed the darkened skin on knees and skin that didn't glow right etc..which is kinda low adrenal symptoms, and just at beginning of that puberty stage where the low thyroid could have started.
> > >
> >That's a long one so I skimmed it. The conclusion seems to be that continuous antihistamine usage is what's needed here. I wonder if taking adequate amounts of quercetin would do the job also or even Cromolyn Sodium. I should also be aggressively trying to counteract the inflammation occuring in my body as a result of this allergic condition, shouldn't I? It's so wierd when you get something out of the blue like this that you haven't had the rest of your life. If I could normalize my immune response, I could attack this at the start... Oh well, too many problems, too little time and money...
Kara
> interesting article on histamine, hives etc..
>
> http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1034/j.1398-9995.2002.1r3542.x/full/
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 12:45:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:46:30
> >
> > I am so amazed at how you've been able to determine cause and effect in your life and in how you've been able to so clearly identify your reactions to various supplements.
>
> It's taken around ten years to get somewhere, and there'e been a lot of trial and error - I've tended to try things, see how they feel, then try to work out why. Over the last few years, I've learnt to feel things to save money! Does it make my head feel better or worse when I hold it - get some strange looks in the health food shop!
> >
> > In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise. I had considered that adrenal fatigue was the culprit but I don't feel bad during exercise or immediately afterwards. It's only later on that I feel the need to sleep. I'm certain now that the exercise boosts dopamine and those darn autoreceptors overreact. Now I'm wondering if the receptor problem was caused by years of viral CFS, inflammation issues, and/or years of SSRI usage. If it's the latter then maybe I should not continue on the Cymbalta (even though it also targets NE).
>
> I worry about the reuptake inhibitors because several studies claim that dopamine and noradrenaline become neurotoxic if not safely detoxified... from the following article, it seems that drugs ought to be given along side glutathione!
>
> http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:q5kvewBkTIIJ:www.prozactruth.com/ritalinarticle.htm+cymbalta+dopamine+quinone&hl=en
Ray,That article is only about dopaminergics. I've heard/read about the potential neurotoxicity issues with dopamine boosting (taking stimulants) but stimulants are more about squeezing out more dopamine rather than preventing its reuptake. I don't know that this article is relevant at all for the SSRIs, NRIs or SNRIs.
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 12:58:52
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:57:38
> >
> > P.S. Re: my previous post, have you ever read "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD? If so, what did you think of it?
>
> Looked up an extract on amazon - some of the ideas looked good advice, but a lot of the supplements he suggests I feel worse on!
> phosphatidyl serine, acetyl-l-carnitine, DMAE and green tea all worsen my symptoms. Pushing acetylcholine, for me, seems to give me an excitotoxic reaction (ie, massive headache!).
>
> Please don't feel obliged to answer if you haven't time!
>
> Ray
I still think it's amazing how in tune you are with the effects of the supplements you try (seeing as I can detect no effect from 95% of the things I try) although I definitely remember when they have a very definite bad effect. But getting back to Dr. Dharma's book. It's a good book not just because of the supplements he suggests, but also because of the excercises/meditations he proposes. My only complaint is that he advises the use of a lot of supplements that are blood thinning - and he advises using them all together. I e-mailed him about that and he replied that if I was concerned that I should talk to my doctor.K
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 13:14:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 12:33:15
dopamine supersensitivity as a breakdown in balance of D1/D2 receptors, possible caused by long term antidepressant use?...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1979237
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