![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 80. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jay on July 11, 2004, at 12:02:05
Hey Larry...is there much evidence as to if Taurine plays a role in mental conditions? It seems to have anti-seizure properties, and also anti-anxiety benefits. Could you explain this a bit..if you don't mind? Thanks very much,
Jay
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 11, 2004, at 13:38:43
In reply to Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by jay on July 11, 2004, at 12:02:05
> Hey Larry...is there much evidence as to if Taurine plays a role in mental conditions? It seems to have anti-seizure properties, and also anti-anxiety benefits. Could you explain this a bit..if you don't mind? Thanks very much,
>
> JayThanks, Jay. I'm grateful for the question, for without it, I would not have moved taurine from my list of "I would like to try this", to my "I'm buying this tomorrow" list.
I only spent about a half hour digging stuff up, so there must surely be much that I have not yet considered. Here's a quick and dirty summary of taurine's effects.
The amino acid taurine has never been found in a mammalian protein (as far as I know, only as a dipeptide), yet it is found in relatively high concentrations in both blood plasma and brain tissues. Specific enzymes dedicated solely to its synthesis are found in high concentration in brain tissues. Why, you ask?
Taurine is a neuromodulator. It assists the brain in regulating the effects of neurotransmitters. There are dedicated taurine storage systems and uptake pumps at brain synapses.
Here's a quick list of some of its effects:
1. It normalizes norepinephrine stress response thresholds, which is to say, it reduces NE release if it is excessive, but does not affect it if the level is normal.
2. It has an additive effect to GABA release, probably by increasing total GABA response. It may also be a direct agonist at GABA(A) receptors.
3. It is an essential modulator of mitochondrial transfer-RNA, and normalizes defective ATP production in at least two mitochondrial energy disorders (i.e. it might help in chronic fatigue and fibromylagia).
4. It enhances endogenous opioid levels (beta-endorphin).
5. In the manner of mood-stabilizers, it regulates calcium flux in neurons.
6. It protects against excitatory neurotoxicity (as by glutamate).
7. It probably increases dopamine turnover.
8. It promotes neuroplasticity (e.g. in hippocampus).
9. It probably synergizes with zinc.
10. Taurine deficiency may be one of the critical triggers for alcoholism. Ethanol triggers taurine release in brain. Taurine supplements reduce alcohol seeking. The drug acamprosate, used to treat alcoholism, is calcium acetylhomotaurinate.
11. Taurine is a direct modulator of the HPA, via receptors in the hypothalamus.Will that do, for a start?
If I may be so bold, it may be that the adverse effects of chronic stress, and induction of some mood disorders, may arise from depletion of neuronal taurine stores. Taurine is a sulphur-bearing amino acid, and there are numerous others in that inter-related biochemical family (SAMe, methionine, homocysteine, cysteine) for which abnormal concentrations are also related to mood disorders. Taurine is synthesized from cysteine (which is found in whey protein), which may itself be synthesized from SAMe or homocysteine via the trans-sulphuration pathway (heavily dependent on vitamin B6).
Many years ago, it was private correspondence with a mood-disordered man, which triggered my interest in nutritional supplements as treatments for mental conditions. He was an ultra-rapid-cycling bipolar, with dysphoric mania (if I recall correctly, he also abused alcohol). No medical treatment stabilized his mood. Somehow, he came to experiment with taurine, and his mood stabilized for the first time in his life. Maybe this is coming full circle. Alan, if you're out there, buddy, I owe you large.
Brain taurine uptake is linear with plasma concentrations, so oral supps directly supplement brain stores, without fear of competition or other uptake considerations.
Lar
Posted by jay on July 11, 2004, at 14:15:05
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » jay, posted by Larry Hoover on July 11, 2004, at 13:38:43
> > Hey Larry...is there much evidence as to if Taurine plays a role in mental conditions? It seems to have anti-seizure properties, and also anti-anxiety benefits. Could you explain this a bit..if you don't mind? Thanks very much,
> >
> > Jay
>
> Thanks, Jay. I'm grateful for the question, for without it, I would not have moved taurine from my list of "I would like to try this", to my "I'm buying this tomorrow" list.
>
> I only spent about a half hour digging stuff up, so there must surely be much that I have not yet considered. Here's a quick and dirty summary of taurine's effects.
>
> The amino acid taurine has never been found in a mammalian protein (as far as I know, only as a dipeptide), yet it is found in relatively high concentrations in both blood plasma and brain tissues. Specific enzymes dedicated solely to its synthesis are found in high concentration in brain tissues. Why, you ask?
>
> Taurine is a neuromodulator. It assists the brain in regulating the effects of neurotransmitters. There are dedicated taurine storage systems and uptake pumps at brain synapses.
>
> Here's a quick list of some of its effects:
> 1. It normalizes norepinephrine stress response thresholds, which is to say, it reduces NE release if it is excessive, but does not affect it if the level is normal.
> 2. It has an additive effect to GABA release, probably by increasing total GABA response. It may also be a direct agonist at GABA(A) receptors.
> 3. It is an essential modulator of mitochondrial transfer-RNA, and normalizes defective ATP production in at least two mitochondrial energy disorders (i.e. it might help in chronic fatigue and fibromylagia).
> 4. It enhances endogenous opioid levels (beta-endorphin).
> 5. In the manner of mood-stabilizers, it regulates calcium flux in neurons.
> 6. It protects against excitatory neurotoxicity (as by glutamate).
> 7. It probably increases dopamine turnover.
> 8. It promotes neuroplasticity (e.g. in hippocampus).
> 9. It probably synergizes with zinc.
> 10. Taurine deficiency may be one of the critical triggers for alcoholism. Ethanol triggers taurine release in brain. Taurine supplements reduce alcohol seeking. The drug acamprosate, used to treat alcoholism, is calcium acetylhomotaurinate.
> 11. Taurine is a direct modulator of the HPA, via receptors in the hypothalamus.
>
> Will that do, for a start?
>
> If I may be so bold, it may be that the adverse effects of chronic stress, and induction of some mood disorders, may arise from depletion of neuronal taurine stores. Taurine is a sulphur-bearing amino acid, and there are numerous others in that inter-related biochemical family (SAMe, methionine, homocysteine, cysteine) for which abnormal concentrations are also related to mood disorders. Taurine is synthesized from cysteine (which is found in whey protein), which may itself be synthesized from SAMe or homocysteine via the trans-sulphuration pathway (heavily dependent on vitamin B6).
>
> Many years ago, it was private correspondence with a mood-disordered man, which triggered my interest in nutritional supplements as treatments for mental conditions. He was an ultra-rapid-cycling bipolar, with dysphoric mania (if I recall correctly, he also abused alcohol). No medical treatment stabilized his mood. Somehow, he came to experiment with taurine, and his mood stabilized for the first time in his life. Maybe this is coming full circle. Alan, if you're out there, buddy, I owe you large.
>
> Brain taurine uptake is linear with plasma concentrations, so oral supps directly supplement brain stores, without fear of competition or other uptake considerations.
>
> Lar
>
>Larry, I have found Taurine to have effects much in line with benzos, without all of the side effects. (i.e. drowsiness, forgetfullness) I have been using it on and off over the past year, because I used to have to get it imported at a local health food store. (And the cost was much too.) Now, with cheaper prices, I am going to even further expand my use of it, mainly to help me get through anxious times when my mood stabalizer and benzos aren't enough.
I also found a few abstracts on PubMed suggesting, as may have been the case with your friend you mentioned above, that it may have some use in alcoholism. I *also* know for a fact there are a few drug companies looking into Taurine, and possibly making subtle changes as a good mood regulator and also for seizures.
I will try to keep up to date on my experiences with it on here, and would really suggest to you and others to possibly give it a whirl. It may be 'brain food' to assist protection from a number of mental health conditions.
Thanks for your great post(s) and research!
Best,
Jay
Posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 15:20:45
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » Larry Hoover, posted by jay on July 11, 2004, at 14:15:05
Hope you don't mind my barging in here but this post makes me want to run out and buy some taurine as well. Do you think it's calming enough to help with sleep? If it's so closely related to acamprosate, is it also an NMDA antagonist, and therefore, could it be used to help prevent tolerance to stimulants? I've never seen it mentioned here before for that purpose but if it helps with alcoholism then I would think it might have value with the stimulants as well, no?
Larry,
I noticed that you only post on the alternative and health boards but I think I did a search and found some posts of yours in the archives from the regular board. If you don't mind my asking, I'm curious as to why you don't post there anymore. Have you decided that alternative approaches are the only way to go for you? I tend to go back and forth on this issue so would really be very interested in your answer. Thanks,
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2004, at 11:35:34
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » Larry Hoover, posted by jay on July 11, 2004, at 14:15:05
> Larry, I have found Taurine to have effects much in line with benzos, without all of the side effects. (i.e. drowsiness, forgetfullness) I have been using it on and off over the past year, because I used to have to get it imported at a local health food store. (And the cost was much too.) Now, with cheaper prices, I am going to even further expand my use of it, mainly to help me get through anxious times when my mood stabalizer and benzos aren't enough.
I got the impression that you were thinking about using it, and you are already using it. Sneaky. (teasing)
> I also found a few abstracts on PubMed suggesting, as may have been the case with your friend you mentioned above, that it may have some use in alcoholism. I *also* know for a fact there are a few drug companies looking into Taurine, and possibly making subtle changes as a good mood regulator and also for seizures.To make taurine into a patentable drug, they need only change a single atom, although it's likely that there might be more substantive changes made to the basic molecule.
> I will try to keep up to date on my experiences with it on here, and would really suggest to you and others to possibly give it a whirl. It may be 'brain food' to assist protection from a number of mental health conditions.
>
> Thanks for your great post(s) and research!
>
> Best,
> JayYou're welcome, dude. And I am serious about being grateful for being asked in the first place.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2004, at 11:44:17
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 15:20:45
> Hope you don't mind my barging in here but this post makes me want to run out and buy some taurine as well. Do you think it's calming enough to help with sleep?
Oh, dare I hope that it does? Insomnia is my cruelest and most resistant-to-treatment symptom. If I could get restorative sleep, I *know* I'd do so much better in all other aspects.
> If it's so closely related to acamprosate, is it also an NMDA antagonist, and therefore, could it be used to help prevent tolerance to stimulants? I've never seen it mentioned here before for that purpose but if it helps with alcoholism then I would think it might have value with the stimulants as well, no?
I will check into that, and come back to it. I have some history as a substance abuser, myself.
> Larry,
> I noticed that you only post on the alternative and health boards but I think I did a search and found some posts of yours in the archives from the regular board. If you don't mind my asking, I'm curious as to why you don't post there anymore.Two things come to mind. First, there are some very well-educated pharmacology types already over there. Second, it is totally hidden from sight, but I am really not doing well these last few months. The whole blocking thing, arguing with Bob, and some other things in my real world, have nearly driven me into the hospital. It may seem hard to grasp, but I participate on these particular boards as a form of therapy. My brain needs something to do. And I have to remind myself about all the subtle aspects of self-care and rejuvenation afforded by nutritional/herbal therapies. I simply don't have the energy to do more, just now.
> Have you decided that alternative approaches are the only way to go for you?
I'm on an SSRI right now, for example. I use them sparingly, as they are very hard on my system, but they have their application.
> I tend to go back and forth on this issue so would really be very interested in your answer. Thanks,
> KaraTake care, and thanks for asking about me.
Lar
Posted by Simus on July 13, 2004, at 0:07:41
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » jay, posted by Larry Hoover on July 11, 2004, at 13:38:43
Larry,
I don't know what condition brings you to this board, but I sure hope and pray that you see full recovery soon. You have been such a blessing to all of us.
God bless,
Simus
Posted by KaraS on July 13, 2004, at 3:00:23
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2004, at 11:44:17
> > Hope you don't mind my barging in here but this post makes me want to run out and buy some taurine as well. Do you think it's calming enough to help with sleep?
>
> Oh, dare I hope that it does? Insomnia is my cruelest and most resistant-to-treatment symptom. If I could get restorative sleep, I *know* I'd do so much better in all other aspects.
>
Insomnia can be the worst. Today I functioned (or tried to function) on two hours of sleep. Other times I could sleep for ever. Go figure. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the taurine helps you.
> > If it's so closely related to acamprosate, is it also an NMDA antagonist, and therefore, could it be used to help prevent tolerance to stimulants? I've never seen it mentioned here before for that purpose but if it helps with alcoholism then I would think it might have value with the stimulants as well, no?
>
> I will check into that, and come back to it. I have some history as a substance abuser, myself.
>
> > Larry,
> > I noticed that you only post on the alternative and health boards but I think I did a search and found some posts of yours in the archives from the regular board. If you don't mind my asking, I'm curious as to why you don't post there anymore.
>
> Two things come to mind. First, there are some very well-educated pharmacology types already over there. Second, it is totally hidden from sight, but I am really not doing well these last few months. The whole blocking thing, arguing with Bob, and some other things in my real world, have nearly driven me into the hospital. It may seem hard to grasp, but I participate on these particular boards as a form of therapy. My brain needs something to do. And I have to remind myself about all the subtle aspects of self-care and rejuvenation afforded by nutritional/herbal therapies. I simply don't have the energy to do more, just now.
>
I am so sad to hear that you're not doing well and I think now that I finally get it when you say thank you for asking the questions. I started posting here regularly right when you were being welcomed back so I really missed that whole controversy. But I will say that I think that the rest of the people on the board were "punished" at least as much as you were. I can also see where you would miss all of the positive feedback you receive here. You are clearly cherished by many. I don't know what else is going on with you but I do hope that things get better soon or at least that you are able to deal with it all better.I was just reading yesterday that Sad Panda had recently gone through a horrible time (but fortunately is doing a lot better now) and that Scott (SLS) is going through a particularly bad time. Then I read about you. I haven't been able to think about much else for the last day or so. Too many good people going through such hard times. It's amazing how quickly you can feel a bond with people you've never really met and would walk right past on the street without a clue as to who they are. I am very grateful to have found people I can talk to about medications, supplements and even feelings. Up until now I really haven't had that at all. The Internet is really a miraculous thing.
On that note I think I'll head out and try to get some sleep.
Kara> > Have you decided that alternative approaches are the only way to go for you?
>
> I'm on an SSRI right now, for example. I use them sparingly, as they are very hard on my system, but they have their application.
>
> > I tend to go back and forth on this issue so would really be very interested in your answer. Thanks,
> > Kara
>
> Take care, and thanks for asking about me.
>
> Lar
Posted by johnj on July 13, 2004, at 17:49:15
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on July 13, 2004, at 3:00:23
Your post said everything I can't right now regarding how I feel about Lar. He is a good man. I feel your pain about loss sleep. Without it I just fumble through the day and hope I can keep my job. All the best to you.
johnj
Posted by KaraS on July 13, 2004, at 18:09:59
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by johnj on July 13, 2004, at 17:49:15
Posted by mistermindmasta on July 13, 2004, at 23:28:38
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » jay, posted by Larry Hoover on July 11, 2004, at 13:38:43
So if depletion of brain taurine could cause a mood disorder, any idea of what depletes the taurine (besides stress and / or a low protein diet)?
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 14, 2004, at 10:04:38
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on July 13, 2004, at 3:00:23
> > Oh, dare I hope that it does? Insomnia is my cruelest and most resistant-to-treatment symptom. If I could get restorative sleep, I *know* I'd do so much better in all other aspects.
> >
> Insomnia can be the worst. Today I functioned (or tried to function) on two hours of sleep. Other times I could sleep for ever. Go figure. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the taurine helps you.Well, it took me a couple of days to find some taurine. Geez, it's cheap (in bulk). I took about 3 grams yesterday afternoon (I really need to find my analytical balance....so much stuff in storage).
I think it had a general soothing effect, and my girlfriend says I was especially goofy on the phone. I think I slept better than is typical, as well. One day does not a pattern make. We shall see.
> > > Larry,
> > > I noticed that you only post on the alternative and health boards but I think I did a search and found some posts of yours in the archives from the regular board. If you don't mind my asking, I'm curious as to why you don't post there anymore.
> >
> > Two things come to mind. First, there are some very well-educated pharmacology types already over there.Did you see my post in the Effexor thread?
> Second, it is totally hidden from sight, but I am really not doing well these last few months. The whole blocking thing, arguing with Bob, and some other things in my real world, have nearly driven me into the hospital. It may seem hard to grasp, but I participate on these particular boards as a form of therapy. My brain needs something to do. And I have to remind myself about all the subtle aspects of self-care and rejuvenation afforded by nutritional/herbal therapies. I simply don't have the energy to do more, just now.
> >
> I am so sad to hear that you're not doing well and I think now that I finally get it when you say thank you for asking the questions.I've always been that way, well or less well. It's just a good thing for me to do, and I can manage it even when less well.
> I started posting here regularly right when you were being welcomed back so I really missed that whole controversy.
Let's leave it that way, then.
> But I will say that I think that the rest of the people on the board were "punished" at least as much as you were.
Well, perhaps, but it is irrelevant to the block issue itself.
> I can also see where you would miss all of the positive feedback you receive here. You are clearly cherished by many.
Yes, I do appreciate the respect. But I would do it (posting here), anyway.
> I don't know what else is going on with you but I do hope that things get better soon or at least that you are able to deal with it all better.
I have many tools in my toolbox. All things in their time. Everything works out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, it isn't the end.
I fell off a truck and broke my elbow back in January. I have nerve damage and there's something wonky in the joint (it locks up, with ice-pick pain). MRI on the 26th, and surgery, I think. There's always something, eh?
> I was just reading yesterday that Sad Panda had recently gone through a horrible time (but fortunately is doing a lot better now) and that Scott (SLS) is going through a particularly bad time. Then I read about you. I haven't been able to think about much else for the last day or so. Too many good people going through such hard times.
Oh, honey, I'm sorry you're so concerned about me and others. It's a roller-coaster, and sometimes ya dip.
> It's amazing how quickly you can feel a bond with people you've never really met and would walk right past on the street without a clue as to who they are. I am very grateful to have found people I can talk to about medications, supplements and even feelings. Up until now I really haven't had that at all. The Internet is really a miraculous thing.
Yes. Yes it is. And you don't even have to get dressed. ;-)
> On that note I think I'll head out and try to get some sleep.
> KaraYou head out to get some sleep? Eh? Hope it worked.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 14, 2004, at 10:06:14
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by mistermindmasta on July 13, 2004, at 23:28:38
> So if depletion of brain taurine could cause a mood disorder, any idea of what depletes the taurine (besides stress and / or a low protein diet)?
Chronic stress, even with a high protein diet, can be all it takes. That's the simplest explanation, and the simplest explanation is usually correct.
Lar
Posted by joebob on July 14, 2004, at 11:02:44
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 14, 2004, at 10:04:38
Posted by KaraS on July 14, 2004, at 13:08:21
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 14, 2004, at 10:04:38
> > > Oh, dare I hope that it does? Insomnia is my cruelest and most resistant-to-treatment symptom. If I could get restorative sleep, I *know* I'd do so much better in all other aspects.
> > >
> > Insomnia can be the worst. Today I functioned (or tried to function) on two hours of sleep. Other times I could sleep for ever. Go figure. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the taurine helps you.
>
> Well, it took me a couple of days to find some taurine. Geez, it's cheap (in bulk). I took about 3 grams yesterday afternoon (I really need to find my analytical balance....so much stuff in storage).
>
> I think it had a general soothing effect, and my girlfriend says I was especially goofy on the phone. I think I slept better than is typical, as well. One day does not a pattern make. We shall see.
>Sounds like it just might work for you. Sleep and goofiness - what more could you ask for?
> > > > Larry,
> > > > I noticed that you only post on the alternative and health boards but I think I did a search and found some posts of yours in the archives from the regular board. If you don't mind my asking, I'm curious as to why you don't post there anymore.
> > >
> > > Two things come to mind. First, there are some very well-educated pharmacology types already over there.
>
> Did you see my post in the Effexor thread?Yes, I did. I had a feeling you might contact Scott. The going off of Effexor wasn't his problem - that was just the thread he was continuing. Hopefully he will get back to you soon with what's going on with him.
>
> > Second, it is totally hidden from sight, but I am really not doing well these last few months. The whole blocking thing, arguing with Bob, and some other things in my real world, have nearly driven me into the hospital. It may seem hard to grasp, but I participate on these particular boards as a form of therapy. My brain needs something to do. And I have to remind myself about all the subtle aspects of self-care and rejuvenation afforded by nutritional/herbal therapies. I simply don't have the energy to do more, just now.
> > >
> > I am so sad to hear that you're not doing well and I think now that I finally get it when you say thank you for asking the questions.
>
> I've always been that way, well or less well. It's just a good thing for me to do, and I can manage it even when less well.
>
> > I started posting here regularly right when you were being welcomed back so I really missed that whole controversy.
>
> Let's leave it that way, then.
>
> > But I will say that I think that the rest of the people on the board were "punished" at least as much as you were.
>
> Well, perhaps, but it is irrelevant to the block issue itself.
>
> > I can also see where you would miss all of the positive feedback you receive here. You are clearly cherished by many.
>
> Yes, I do appreciate the respect. But I would do it (posting here), anyway.
>I had no intention of getting you to delve into the details - just to let you know how I feel and how I have noticed that others feel about you. It's not just the respect you mention above. It's also genuine fondness (for lack of a better word) for you as a person.
> > I don't know what else is going on with you but I do hope that things get better soon or at least that you are able to deal with it all better.
>
> I have many tools in my toolbox. All things in their time. Everything works out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, it isn't the end.
>
> I fell off a truck and broke my elbow back in January. I have nerve damage and there's something wonky in the joint (it locks up, with ice-pick pain). MRI on the 26th, and surgery, I think. There's always something, eh?
>Major bummer but at least they think it's fixable. (C'est la vie.)
> > I was just reading yesterday that Sad Panda had recently gone through a horrible time (but fortunately is doing a lot better now) and that Scott (SLS) is going through a particularly bad time. Then I read about you. I haven't been able to think about much else for the last day or so. Too many good people going through such hard times.
>
> Oh, honey, I'm sorry you're so concerned about me and others. It's a roller-coaster, and sometimes ya dip.
>
I think it was the combination of hearing it from three people I've come to like all at once (on top of my own issues of course). Fortunately you sound a lot better now. I'm glad. Hopefully Scott will do better soon too.
> > It's amazing how quickly you can feel a bond with people you've never really met and would walk right past on the street without a clue as to who they are. I am very grateful to have found people I can talk to about medications, supplements and even feelings. Up until now I really haven't had that at all. The Internet is really a miraculous thing.
>
> Yes. Yes it is. And you don't even have to get dressed. ;-)That's the best part about it!
>
> > On that note I think I'll head out and try to get some sleep.
> > Kara
>
> You head out to get some sleep? Eh? Hope it worked.
>
> Lar
>
Don't know where I got that expression from. I'll blame it on my brain fog.Stay well,
Kara
Posted by mistermindmasta on July 14, 2004, at 21:45:50
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » mistermindmasta, posted by Larry Hoover on July 14, 2004, at 10:06:14
> Chronic stress, even with a high protein diet, can be all it takes. That's the simplest explanation, and the simplest explanation is usually correct.
>
> Lar
>Ahhhhhh... chronic stress doesn't seem make full sense to me with what causes a mood disorder. There has to be more to it. Lots of people get stressed out during the day but recover from it, no problem. I think there has to be something other than just stress that causes taurine depletion. Maybe cytokine release somehow contributes to low taurine? I say this only because I believe that all psychiatric disorders are caused directly by one of 4 things: 1. the immune system (in majority of cases to be honest), 2. substance abuse 3. nutrient defiency and 4. being born with it. I am not of the opinion that a normal person could get stressed out enough to actually develop a mood disorder. I think stress is only a factor in the development of a mood disorder, one of many factors. But if the immune system is somehow releasing immune system factors such as cytokines, maybe this depletes taurine.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 15, 2004, at 9:17:38
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on July 14, 2004, at 13:08:21
> Sounds like it just might work for you. Sleep and goofiness - what more could you ask for?
A lottery win would be nice.
> > Did you see my post in the Effexor thread?
>
> Yes, I did. I had a feeling you might contact Scott.Scott sure has a load to bear, in this life.
> The going off of Effexor wasn't his problem - that was just the thread he was continuing. Hopefully he will get back to you soon with what's going on with him.
I hope so, too. Actually, I was drawn to the thread by an administrative action, but hey! Whatever gets me going is good.
> > > I can also see where you would miss all of the positive feedback you receive here. You are clearly cherished by many.
> >
> > Yes, I do appreciate the respect. But I would do it (posting here), anyway.
> >
>
> I had no intention of getting you to delve into the details - just to let you know how I feel and how I have noticed that others feel about you. It's not just the respect you mention above. It's also genuine fondness (for lack of a better word) for you as a person.Ya, I know. But I felt bad about you feeling bad about my feeling bad. When I got blocked, I had to face how much it meant to me to be a part of this community, and the sense of loss was crushing.
> > > I don't know what else is going on with you but I do hope that things get better soon or at least that you are able to deal with it all better.
> >
> > I have many tools in my toolbox. All things in their time. Everything works out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, it isn't the end.
> >
> > I fell off a truck and broke my elbow back in January. I have nerve damage and there's something wonky in the joint (it locks up, with ice-pick pain). MRI on the 26th, and surgery, I think. There's always something, eh?
> >
>
> Major bummer but at least they think it's fixable. (C'est la vie.)Oui. Que sera, sera.
> > > I was just reading yesterday that Sad Panda had recently gone through a horrible time (but fortunately is doing a lot better now) and that Scott (SLS) is going through a particularly bad time. Then I read about you. I haven't been able to think about much else for the last day or so. Too many good people going through such hard times.
> >
> > Oh, honey, I'm sorry you're so concerned about me and others. It's a roller-coaster, and sometimes ya dip.
> >
> I think it was the combination of hearing it from three people I've come to like all at once (on top of my own issues of course). Fortunately you sound a lot better now. I'm glad. Hopefully Scott will do better soon too.I try to act like a beach ball held under water. Lots of buoyancy.
> > > It's amazing how quickly you can feel a bond with people you've never really met and would walk right past on the street without a clue as to who they are. I am very grateful to have found people I can talk to about medications, supplements and even feelings. Up until now I really haven't had that at all. The Internet is really a miraculous thing.
> >
> > Yes. Yes it is. And you don't even have to get dressed. ;-)
>
> That's the best part about it!If only they would pay me for it.
> >
> > > On that note I think I'll head out and try to get some sleep.
> > > Kara
> >
> > You head out to get some sleep? Eh? Hope it worked.
> >
> > Lar
> >
> Don't know where I got that expression from. I'll blame it on my brain fog.
>
> Stay well,
> KaraYou too.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 15, 2004, at 11:55:36
In reply to Re: Larry, posted by mistermindmasta on July 14, 2004, at 21:45:50
> > Chronic stress, even with a high protein diet, can be all it takes. That's the simplest explanation, and the simplest explanation is usually correct.
> >
> > Lar
> >Just in case you didn't know, to indicate a posting in reply to, or to the attention of, a specific poster, tick the "add name of previous poster" box in the edit window, just below the subject field.
I've changed the subject field to reflect the topic being discussed.
> Ahhhhhh... chronic stress doesn't seem make full sense to me with what causes a mood disorder. There has to be more to it.
I didn't mean my remark to be reflective of a sole cause.
> Lots of people get stressed out during the day but recover from it, no problem.
You're describing recurrent acute stress. Chronic stress (as I intended it to mean) occurs when the body loses its ability to recover from acute stress. Distinctive biochemical changes occur, which create negative feedback loops. It is a classic vicious cycle phenomenon.
> I think there has to be something other than just stress that causes taurine depletion. Maybe cytokine release somehow contributes to low taurine?
Oh, absolutely, there is no single biochemical modality. The system is perturbed, if one element is perturbed.
> I say this only because I believe that all psychiatric disorders are caused directly by one of 4 things: 1. the immune system (in majority of cases to be honest),
I would agree, but I would state it as correlated with, or accompanied by.
2. substance abuse
Self-medication is likely to be evidence of the emergence of underlying symptomatology. It's more of a confound, IMHO, although substance abuse can cause mood problems (e.g. Ecstacy and cocaine might permanently alter neurotransmitter function).
3. nutrient defiency and
I place that at the head of the list, myself. Functional deficiency can be due to poor diet, poor assimilation, poor utilization, poor storage/retention, and so on. Stress increases nutrient demand, so ultimately, stress exerts its effects via malnutrition. The genetic predispositions to mood disorders are ultimately functional deficiencies of essential nutrients (and their products), in my teleological world.
> 4. being born with it.
See #3.
> I am not of the opinion that a normal person could get stressed out enough to actually develop a mood disorder.
PTSD. Nervous/stress breakdown. We have constructs describing just that.
> I think stress is only a factor in the development of a mood disorder, one of many factors.
One of many, indeed. Certainly one of mine, which might bias my perspective.
> But if the immune system is somehow releasing immune system factors such as cytokines, maybe this depletes taurine.
I have only brushed the surface of taurine metabolism, as of yet. More, anon.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on July 15, 2004, at 15:14:06
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 15, 2004, at 9:17:38
> > Sounds like it just might work for you. Sleep and goofiness - what more could you ask for?
>
> A lottery win would be nice.
>
> > > Did you see my post in the Effexor thread?
> >
> > Yes, I did. I had a feeling you might contact Scott.
>
> Scott sure has a load to bear, in this life.
>
> > The going off of Effexor wasn't his problem - that was just the thread he was continuing. Hopefully he will get back to you soon with what's going on with him.
>
> I hope so, too. Actually, I was drawn to the thread by an administrative action, but hey! Whatever gets me going is good.
>Speaking of administrative action, did you know that Chemist was blocked for a week? (or was that the administrative action you were referring to?) I had a part in that so I feel a little bad about it - but not too bad as it's only a week and he knew where his actions might lead. He fought the good fight anyway.
> > > > I can also see where you would miss all of the positive feedback you receive here. You are clearly cherished by many.
> > >
> > > Yes, I do appreciate the respect. But I would do it (posting here), anyway.
> > >
> >
> > I had no intention of getting you to delve into the details - just to let you know how I feel and how I have noticed that others feel about you. It's not just the respect you mention above. It's also genuine fondness (for lack of a better word) for you as a person.
>
> Ya, I know. But I felt bad about you feeling bad about my feeling bad. When I got blocked, I had to face how much it meant to me to be a part of this community, and the sense of loss was crushing.
>
I could understand that. Where would you/we be without our virtual e-friends? I'm at the stage of wanting to see people and find out what they look like and what their lives are really like. That would ruin the openness and anonymity of course but enquiring minds want to know! I'm intrigued by the concept of pouring out your heart and most personal stories and feelings to someone(s) on-line and then knowing that you could walk right past that "stranger" in the real world and never have any clue as to what you have shared with him/her/them. (BTW, how does your girlfriend feel about sharing you with all of us?)
> > > > I don't know what else is going on with you but I do hope that things get better soon or at least that you are able to deal with it all better.
> > >
> > > I have many tools in my toolbox. All things in their time. Everything works out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, it isn't the end.
> > >So good to hear. That's what worried me so about Scott - he wasn't seeing any more tools in the toolbox.
> > > I fell off a truck and broke my elbow back in January. I have nerve damage and there's something wonky in the joint (it locks up, with ice-pick pain). MRI on the 26th, and surgery, I think. There's always something, eh?
> > >
> >
> > Major bummer but at least they think it's fixable. (C'est la vie.)
>
> Oui. Que sera, sera.I just burst into song upon reading that ...
>
> > > > I was just reading yesterday that Sad Panda had recently gone through a horrible time (but fortunately is doing a lot better now) and that Scott (SLS) is going through a particularly bad time. Then I read about you. I haven't been able to think about much else for the last day or so. Too many good people going through such hard times.
> > >
> > > Oh, honey, I'm sorry you're so concerned about me and others. It's a roller-coaster, and sometimes ya dip.
> > >
> > I think it was the combination of hearing it from three people I've come to like all at once (on top of my own issues of course). Fortunately you sound a lot better now. I'm glad. Hopefully Scott will do better soon too.
>
> I try to act like a beach ball held under water. Lots of buoyancy.
>Good analogy or should I say metaphor?
> > > > It's amazing how quickly you can feel a bond with people you've never really met and would walk right past on the street without a clue as to who they are. I am very grateful to have found people I can talk to about medications, supplements and even feelings. Up until now I really haven't had that at all. The Internet is really a miraculous thing.
> > >
> > > Yes. Yes it is. And you don't even have to get dressed. ;-)
> >
> > That's the best part about it!
>
> If only they would pay me for it.That would be nice. Of course once you win that lottery, you won't need it!
Until later,
K
>
> > >
> > > > On that note I think I'll head out and try to get some sleep.
> > > > Kara
> > >
> > > You head out to get some sleep? Eh? Hope it worked.
> > >
> > > Lar
> > >
> > Don't know where I got that expression from. I'll blame it on my brain fog.
> >
> > Stay well,
> > Kara
>
> You too.
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 16, 2004, at 10:14:37
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on July 15, 2004, at 15:14:06
> > > Sounds like it just might work for you. Sleep and goofiness - what more could you ask for?
> >
> > A lottery win would be nice.Back to the taurine concept.
I have done a down-and-dirty three-day trial of taurine. Without doubt, it is a very helpful supplement to add to my toolbox. I have been struggling with just how to describe the effect, but after an extraordinarily stressful day yesterday, I think I can finally describe it. Taurine seems to be more noticeable, not for what it does, but for what it keeps from happening.
I most certainly felt greater mental clarity, and more "comfortable" emotionally. The best I can describe it would be that my clarity was due to reduced "noise" in my cognitive processes. Easier to focus, very low effort. The comfortable feeling was more a lack of being hyper, a lack of being anxious. The latter is quite distinct from benzo effects, so I struggled with how to describe it. It's more like not needing a benzo than having taken one.
Because of the major stressor yesterday, and because I could feel the taurine wearing off about 9 p.m. last night, I decided to try a second dose. Bad call. There is some stimulant activity; I had a heck of a time getting to sleep, despite the standard cocktail of three meds I take every night. Eventually, I think I got enough sleep.
So, on the basis of that single dose, I am also left to conclude that there is a stimulant effect, but that is so "gentle" during the day that it is unnoticeable, as such. I can feel a cup of coffee, but I don't feel stimulated by the taurine. I am quite intrigued, and you can bet I will be studying taurine metabolism more fully.
> > I hope so, too. Actually, I was drawn to the thread by an administrative action, but hey! Whatever gets me going is good.
> >
>
> Speaking of administrative action, did you know that Chemist was blocked for a week? (or was that the administrative action you were referring to?)Yes, it was. I caught it on Admin, then went looking for the thread. Chemist and I are cut from similar cloth, it seems.
> I had a part in that so I feel a little bad about it - but not too bad as it's only a week and he knew where his actions might lead. He fought the good fight anyway.
There was a principle worth fighting for its full expression. I know that feeling well.
> I could understand that. Where would you/we be without our virtual e-friends? I'm at the stage of wanting to see people and find out what they look like and what their lives are really like. That would ruin the openness and anonymity of course but enquiring minds want to know! I'm intrigued by the concept of pouring out your heart and most personal stories and feelings to someone(s) on-line and then knowing that you could walk right past that "stranger" in the real world and never have any clue as to what you have shared with him/her/them. (BTW, how does your girlfriend feel about sharing you with all of us?)
I told you I loved questions. Her answer was, "It makes me fall in love with you more honey". Now, is that too kewl, or what?
I consider the evolution of the internet a godsend. I can take what I want, and leave the rest.
> > > > > I don't know what else is going on with you but I do hope that things get better soon or at least that you are able to deal with it all better.
> > > >
> > > > I have many tools in my toolbox. All things in their time. Everything works out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, it isn't the end.
> > > >
>
> So good to hear. That's what worried me so about Scott - he wasn't seeing any more tools in the toolbox.I shall never forget his post to me when I said farewell, this spring. I thought I might never return, but perhaps I was letting go of something else. Anyway, I'm thinking of you, Scott. And praying for some peace to come into your life.
Aside: the word disease comes to us from the Old French "desaisu", which means 'not at peace'. Mental disease takes on its real meaning, with that concept. A mind not at peace.
> > > > I fell off a truck and broke my elbow back in January. I have nerve damage and there's something wonky in the joint (it locks up, with ice-pick pain). MRI on the 26th, and surgery, I think. There's always something, eh?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Major bummer but at least they think it's fixable. (C'est la vie.)
> >
> > Oui. Que sera, sera.
>
> I just burst into song upon reading that ...It's the silver lining phenomenon. :-)
> > I try to act like a beach ball held under water. Lots of buoyancy.
> >
>
> Good analogy or should I say metaphor?Pedantically, you'd say simile. The word "like" or "as" is the comparator term, 'similar to'.
> > If only they would pay me for it.
>
> That would be nice. Of course once you win that lottery, you won't need it!I keep trying, but they won't give me the money, yet. I love the word yet. It changes everything it touches.
> Until later,
> KCyberhugs,
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 16, 2004, at 10:20:45
In reply to so, is the dose for taurine 3gm/d and what time? (nm), posted by joebob on July 14, 2004, at 11:02:44
I don't know what *the* dose is. I estimated three gram doses, and that's what I went with. It seems to last about 12 hours in me, though that may have been the case because of extreme stress that one day.
Barbaracat takes 2 grams twice a day. I really haven't had time to look more deeply into dose and effect, yet. Clearly, three or four grams seems a good starting point, but listen to your body.
Good luck,
Lar
Posted by Simus on July 17, 2004, at 0:20:04
In reply to Re: so, is the dose for taurine 3gm/d and what time? » joebob, posted by Larry Hoover on July 16, 2004, at 10:20:45
Larry,
Is there a concern in getting too much of an amino acid? Is there perhaps a toxic level?
Thanks,
Simus
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 17, 2004, at 11:20:43
In reply to Re: so, is the dose for taurine 3gm/d and what time? » Larry Hoover, posted by Simus on July 17, 2004, at 0:20:04
> Larry,
>
> Is there a concern in getting too much of an amino acid? Is there perhaps a toxic level?
>
> Thanks,
>
> SimusI suppose, but how do we determine "too much"? There's the rub.
We generally think of about 20 amino acids when we use the term, and those are the ones which are major components of food proteins. Half of those 20 are essential, meaning we have to get them from food. We are unable to synthesize those from anything else.
The term amino acid, though, actually encompasses hundreds, if not thousands, of compounds. GABA is an amino acid. SAMe is an amino acid. DOPA is an amino acid. 5-HTP is one.
Taurine is one of a rare class, though. Instead of the carboxylic acid group, it has a sulfonic acid group. Taurine is the sulfonic acid version of GABA.
Taurine is found in food, and we can synthesize a little bit of it, but our synthetic enzymes are weak, on a relative comparison with most mammals. Cats have lost taurine synthesis altogether, and it must be in their food or they die.
Although taurine is found in food, it is not a component of protein (with the exception of the simplest of all proteins, the dipeptide, merely two aminos linked together). It has an incredible number of effects within the body. If you are supplementing taurine, how much is too much? Hard to say, but if you listen to your body's reaction, you'll probably be able to figure that out (within reason).
Here's a link to a taurine article that does not mention psych effects. It'll give you a pretty good overview of general physical effects, and therapeutic doses.
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/taurine3-2.html
I see a reference to six grams per day for four weeks, as an example. I don't know of any toxic effects of taurine (Yet. I'm continuing to research taurine.). That said, your own body may reveal adverse effects. For example, I think my own body has shown a greater resistance to sleep (I already have severe insomnia), yet improved restfulness from the sleep I do get. I am not going to take any taurine today, because I don't feel like I need any. So, four days at about 3 grams per day, and I'm going to take a break from it. But I'll surely take it again, as needed.
What I find to be most amazing about taurine is that I don't feel drugged in the slightest. It is almost an anti-drug. I have lost the feeling that I might benefit from a drug. That is how it feels....I notice what I no longer feel much more succinctly that any literal effect. I'm simply feeling....uhhh....better.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on July 17, 2004, at 16:43:55
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 16, 2004, at 10:14:37
> > > > Sounds like it just might work for you. Sleep and goofiness - what more could you ask for?
> > >
> > > A lottery win would be nice.
>
> Back to the taurine concept.
>
> I have done a down-and-dirty three-day trial of taurine. Without doubt, it is a very helpful supplement to add to my toolbox. I have been struggling with just how to describe the effect, but after an extraordinarily stressful day yesterday, I think I can finally describe it. Taurine seems to be more noticeable, not for what it does, but for what it keeps from happening.
>
> I most certainly felt greater mental clarity, and more "comfortable" emotionally. The best I can describe it would be that my clarity was due to reduced "noise" in my cognitive processes. Easier to focus, very low effort. The comfortable feeling was more a lack of being hyper, a lack of being anxious. The latter is quite distinct from benzo effects, so I struggled with how to describe it. It's more like not needing a benzo than having taken one.
>
> Because of the major stressor yesterday, and because I could feel the taurine wearing off about 9 p.m. last night, I decided to try a second dose. Bad call. There is some stimulant activity; I had a heck of a time getting to sleep, despite the standard cocktail of three meds I take every night. Eventually, I think I got enough sleep.
>
> So, on the basis of that single dose, I am also left to conclude that there is a stimulant effect, but that is so "gentle" during the day that it is unnoticeable, as such. I can feel a cup of coffee, but I don't feel stimulated by the taurine. I am quite intrigued, and you can bet I will be studying taurine metabolism more fully.
>From this and another post of yours on this topic, I am intrigued also. I'm really glad it is helping you. I'll have to add it to the list to try.
By the way, what was your experience with Picamilon? (Don't remember if I've asked you that yet.) I've only taken it once or twice. I've yet to get the full effect or any of the stimulating effect. That's something I'll try soon though. From this site I've gotten a good source to get it cheaply in bulk but I worry about the purity when it doesn't have a name brand attached. Is that a valid fear do you think?
> > > I hope so, too. Actually, I was drawn to the thread by an administrative action, but hey! Whatever gets me going is good.
> > >
> >
> > Speaking of administrative action, did you know that Chemist was blocked for a week? (or was that the administrative action you were referring to?)
>
> Yes, it was. I caught it on Admin, then went looking for the thread. Chemist and I are cut from similar cloth, it seems.
>Yes. I like to think of him as the Larry Hoover of the regular PB board. (LOL)
> > I had a part in that so I feel a little bad about it - but not too bad as it's only a week and he knew where his actions might lead. He fought the good fight anyway.
>
> There was a principle worth fighting for its full expression. I know that feeling well.
>
> > I could understand that. Where would you/we be without our virtual e-friends? I'm at the stage of wanting to see people and find out what they look like and what their lives are really like. That would ruin the openness and anonymity of course but enquiring minds want to know! I'm intrigued by the concept of pouring out your heart and most personal stories and feelings to someone(s) on-line and then knowing that you could walk right past that "stranger" in the real world and never have any clue as to what you have shared with him/her/them. (BTW, how does your girlfriend feel about sharing you with all of us?)
>
> I told you I loved questions. Her answer was, "It makes me fall in love with you more honey". Now, is that too kewl, or what?
She sounds pretty terrific herself.>
> I consider the evolution of the internet a godsend. I can take what I want, and leave the rest.
>
> > > > > > I don't know what else is going on with you but I do hope that things get better soon or at least that you are able to deal with it all better.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have many tools in my toolbox. All things in their time. Everything works out in the end, and if it hasn't worked out, it isn't the end.
> > > > >
> >
> > So good to hear. That's what worried me so about Scott - he wasn't seeing any more tools in the toolbox.
>
> I shall never forget his post to me when I said farewell, this spring. I thought I might never return, but perhaps I was letting go of something else. Anyway, I'm thinking of you, Scott. And praying for some peace to come into your life.
>Ironically, I just happened to read that posting from Scott (led there from Admin where I originally went to read the follow-up about Chemist's block). All I can say is WOOOOOOOOOWWWWW! So raw yet so articulate, so emotional yet so rational. He is very special.
It has been very helpful to me to see men being so in touch with their feelings and so unabashedly forthcoming with them.
(As an aside - he dropped my last post to him because I tried to get him to consider alternative treatments. I didn't have much hope of changing his mind but, since he was seeing so few options left, I felt I had to try - but I won't bring it up again. Hope he's still talking to me.)
> Aside: the word disease comes to us from the Old French "desaisu", which means 'not at peace'. Mental disease takes on its real meaning, with that concept. A mind not at peace.
It don't get much clearer than that!
>
> > > > > I fell off a truck and broke my elbow back in January. I have nerve damage and there's something wonky in the joint (it locks up, with ice-pick pain). MRI on the 26th, and surgery, I think. There's always something, eh?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Major bummer but at least they think it's fixable. (C'est la vie.)
> > >
> > > Oui. Que sera, sera.
> >
> > I just burst into song upon reading that ...
>
> It's the silver lining phenomenon. :-)
>
> > > I try to act like a beach ball held under water. Lots of buoyancy.
> > >
> >
> > Good analogy or should I say metaphor?
>
> Pedantically, you'd say simile. The word "like" or "as" is the comparator term, 'similar to'.
>ok, I'll try not to make that mistake again.
> > > If only they would pay me for it.
> >
> > That would be nice. Of course once you win that lottery, you won't need it!
>
> I keep trying, but they won't give me the money, yet. I love the word yet. It changes everything it touches.
>
> > Until later,
> > K
>
> Cyberhugs,
> Lar
Cyberhugs back,
K
Posted by Indie on July 18, 2004, at 17:36:12
In reply to Re: so, is the dose for taurine 3gm/d and what time? » Simus, posted by Larry Hoover on July 17, 2004, at 11:20:43
WOW. This Taurine sounds like a magic pill. With the effects that it has on alcoholism, is it possible that it would help with cigarette addiction?? I HATE being a smoker. I have tried all of the patch, nicorette gum, welbutrin, etc. Whenever I try to quit smoking it sends me into a severe tailspin. As I am severely depressed at the moment, making it worse is not a good idea!!
Any thoughts??
Thanks,
Indie> > Larry,
> >
> > Is there a concern in getting too much of an amino acid? Is there perhaps a toxic level?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Simus
>
> I suppose, but how do we determine "too much"? There's the rub.
>
> We generally think of about 20 amino acids when we use the term, and those are the ones which are major components of food proteins. Half of those 20 are essential, meaning we have to get them from food. We are unable to synthesize those from anything else.
>
> The term amino acid, though, actually encompasses hundreds, if not thousands, of compounds. GABA is an amino acid. SAMe is an amino acid. DOPA is an amino acid. 5-HTP is one.
>
> Taurine is one of a rare class, though. Instead of the carboxylic acid group, it has a sulfonic acid group. Taurine is the sulfonic acid version of GABA.
>
> Taurine is found in food, and we can synthesize a little bit of it, but our synthetic enzymes are weak, on a relative comparison with most mammals. Cats have lost taurine synthesis altogether, and it must be in their food or they die.
>
> Although taurine is found in food, it is not a component of protein (with the exception of the simplest of all proteins, the dipeptide, merely two aminos linked together). It has an incredible number of effects within the body. If you are supplementing taurine, how much is too much? Hard to say, but if you listen to your body's reaction, you'll probably be able to figure that out (within reason).
>
> Here's a link to a taurine article that does not mention psych effects. It'll give you a pretty good overview of general physical effects, and therapeutic doses.
>
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/taurine3-2.html
>
> I see a reference to six grams per day for four weeks, as an example. I don't know of any toxic effects of taurine (Yet. I'm continuing to research taurine.). That said, your own body may reveal adverse effects. For example, I think my own body has shown a greater resistance to sleep (I already have severe insomnia), yet improved restfulness from the sleep I do get. I am not going to take any taurine today, because I don't feel like I need any. So, four days at about 3 grams per day, and I'm going to take a break from it. But I'll surely take it again, as needed.
>
> What I find to be most amazing about taurine is that I don't feel drugged in the slightest. It is almost an anti-drug. I have lost the feeling that I might benefit from a drug. That is how it feels....I notice what I no longer feel much more succinctly that any literal effect. I'm simply feeling....uhhh....better.
>
> Lar
>
>
Go forward in thread:
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