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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2003, at 16:35:31
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « BarbaraCat, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:58:58
[Posted by Michael Motter on December 21, 2003, at 19:30:23]
> I previously posted my abstract for this but had some requests to post the full article I wrote. I hope this can be helpful to others. Please email me if you have any questions. mottermx@jmu.edu
>
> What is Lithium Orotate?
> By Michael Motter
> Pre-Doc Psychology Student
> James Madison University
>
>
>
> About Lithium Orotate:
>
> Lithium orotate is a popular nutritional supplement that has been marketed in the United States under such names as “Serenity” (www.findserenitynow.com), “Advanced Research” (www.betterlife.com), and “Life Link” (www.nubrain-store.com) to name a few of the many brands that can be found via the internet. Many of these websites claim that lithium orotate is a natural alternative to mood stabilizer and antidepressant medication without any side effects. They claim that lithium orotate can benefit anyone who has migraine headaches, alcoholism, bipolar disorder, depression, or epilepsy.
>
> These claims are backed by the research of Dr. Hans A. Nieper, a German physician, who first studied the use of lithium orotate for migraine headaches, alcoholism, depression, and epilepsy. Dr. Nieper’s article The Clinical Applications of Lithium Orotate: A Two Years Study (1973) concluded that lithium orotate is an effective treatment for migraine headaches, alcoholism, depression, and epilepsy. However, caution should be exercised when interpreting these conclusions. His findings are based on correlational studies and the subjective reports of his patients. Dr. Nieper simply administered lithium orotate to 64 patients that had been diagnosed with the various disorders discussed and used their subjective accounts as evidence of its effectiveness. There is no control group in which he made a comparison to or mention of how he went about controlling for extraneous variables that could have also accounted for their improvement. Thus, we have no idea if it was the lithium orotate or some other factor that accounted for his patient’s improvement. Other research by Satori (1986) suffers from the same flaws. His work supports Nieper’s claim that lithium orotate is an effective treatment for alcoholism and migraine headaches. Again all evidence is based on subjective report and there is no control group in which he compares his findings.
>
> What is Lithium:
>
> Lithium is a mineral or more specifically an alkali metal that is present in the human diet in ultratrace quantities and is also found in some natural mineral waters (Physicians Desk Reference, 2003). The typical daily dietary intake of lithium is approximately 200 to 600 micrograms. Fish, processed meat, milk, milk products, eggs, potatoes and vegetables are rich sources of this mineral. In the United States lithium carbonate and lithium citrate are approved by the FDA for the clinical treatment of bipolar disorder (Food & Drug Administration, 2003). Carbonate (carbonic acid) and citrate (citric acid) are mineral carriers that transport lithium throughout the body. According to Yung (1984) many physicians have also begun to prescribe lithium carbonate and citrate for the “off label” treatment of migraine headaches, seizure disorders, and psychosis. It is important to note that “off label” usage is generally considered an option only after all traditional treatment methods have failed and it is not approved by the FDA.
>
> How it Works:
>
> Lithium is administered orally and is generally taken with food, although its absorption is not markedly affected by the presence of food (Physicians Desk Reference, 2003). According to McKim (2003) lithium carbonate, citrate, and orotate is administered orally and therefore it passes through the stomach into the gastrointestinal tract where it is absorbed by the capillaries into the blood stream. These minerals are then absorbed rapidly into the blood stream (80-100%). Peak levels in the blood occur between a half-hour and two hours with citrate and carbonate. Once in the blood it travels to the brain where it must cross the cell membrane or blood brain barrier. Lithium carbonate and citrate cross the blood brain barrier via active transport. Lithium levels in the blood need to be elevated so that there is enough of it to pass through the membrane in order to be therapeutic. Mckim (2003), reports that no one knows for certain but it is theorized that lithium ions concentrate outside of the membrane causing the potential to become less negative and causing depolarization. The voltage gated ion channels open which allow the sodium ions to rush in. It is hypothesized that the lithium ions replace sodium ions and cross through the blood brain barrier resulting in neutralization of the resting potential.
>
> According to McKim (2003) lithium carbonate and citrate therapy requires reaching serum concentrations of lithium that are close to the toxic concentration. Lithium Carbonate and Citrate therapy requires serum levels of 1.0-1.5 mEq/L for acute mania and 0.6 – 1.2mEq/L for maintenance. During treatment lithium serum concentrations should not usually exceed 1.5 mEq/L. Mild to moderate toxic reactions may occur at lithium concentrations from 1.5 to 2 mEq/L, and moderate to severe reactions at concentrations above 2 mEq/L. Serum lithium concentrations should usually be monitored 3 times weekly and blood studies and urinalysis weekly during the initial period of administration and periodically as required thereafter.
>
> Lithium orotate is administered orally and therefore it passes through the stomach into the gastrointestinal tract where it is absorbed by the capillaries into the blood stream. According to Nieper (1973) digestion breaks off the lithium mineral from the lithium compound when lithium is attached to carbonate and citrate which is then absorbed rapidly into the blood stream. Therefore, lithium orotate is coated with a special coating which supposedly protects the lithium orotate while it passes through the stomach acids. This coating protects the compound and allows it to be absorbed by the capillaries into the bloodstream with most of the lithium still bound to the orotate. According to Nieper (1973) the orotate carriers show a special affinity for tissues in which metabolism involves the blood brain barrier. Orotate supposedly uses passive transport to cross through the blood brain barrier. Because the lithium is still mostly attached to the orotate carrier, it diffuses across the membrane releasing the lithium to the other side and leaving little left in the blood stream.
>
> Nieper (1973) reports that a mineral analysis of his patients whole blood and blood serum found that lithium orotate does not cause the approximate level of 0.02 ppm lithium in normal blood or serum to be exceeded by more than 30% (0.026 ppm). Lithium carbonate contains 18.8mg of elemental lithium per 100mg per 100mg (57mg per 300mg, 113mg per 600mg). Most lithium orotate compounds contains 3.83mg of elemental lithium per 100mg (4.8mg per 120mg). Lithium carbonate can cause serum to rise an average of 0.2 to 0.4 mEq/L after intake of 300 mg and 0.3 to 0.6 mEql/L after intake of 600 mg of lithium carbonate. It appears that lithium orotate does not contain enough elemental lithium per recommended dosage to cause lithium serum concentrations to rise beyond toxic levels. This may explain why they claim that lithium blood serum monitoring is unnecessary. It also raises the questions whether there is even enough lithium to cause any type of therapeutic effect.
>
> Nieper (1973) claims that lower elemental doses of lithium can be administered when attached to orotate because most of the lithium doesn’t dissolve from the carrier until it passes through the blood brain barrier. Therefore, all of the lithium (theoretically enough to be therapeutic) goes to the brain and a minimal amount gets left behind in the blood. Thus the amount of lithium that enters into the bloodstream doesn’t reach toxic levels and doesn’t need to be monitored.
> Lithium is excreted via the kidneys (renally). It is excreted rapidly and several daily doses are needed to maintain the therapeutic level. It is not metabolized; approximately 95% is renally excreted (saliva, sweat, feces 5%). Lithium is excreted unchanged in the urine. Renal excretion is biphasic, with rapid clearance of up to two-thirds within 6-12 hours followed by a slower elimination over the next twelve hours. The overall half-life is between 12 and 24 hours. The excretion rate varies considerably among individuals and increases with age. Half-life in geriatric patients and patients with impaired renal function is increased to 36 to 50 hours.
> What Are The Side Effects:
>
> Nieper (1973) claims that because of the low amount of lithium in the blood serum, the common side effects of lithium carbonate and citrate which include: diarrhea, frequent urination, dehydration, lethargy, nausea, skin rashes, tremor, thyroid dysfunction, and weight gain supposedly do not occur. The low levels also claim to make it safe for use with antithyroid, asthma, bronchitis, cystic fibrosis, emphysema, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID’s), and sinusitis medication and diuretics which may cause interactions with lithium carbonate or citrate. It gives no mention of antipsychotic medication which can have interactions with lithium carbonate and citrate (McKim, 2003).
>
> Nieper (1973) claims that lithium orotate does not have renal side effects because of its low dose. However, research conducted by Smith and Schou (1979) found that kidney functioning and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given a intraperitoneal injection (2 mmol lithium kg-1) of orotate than rats given carbonate, sodium chloride, or a sham injection. Renal lithium clearance was significantly lower. Kidney weight and lithium concentrations in serum kidney and heart were significantly higher in the orotate group which may be caused by the lower kidney functioning. Smith and Schou concluded that lithium orotate was not recommended as safe for humans. Smith (1976) reports that the pharmacokinetics of the lithium ion given as lithium orotate do not differ from lithium chloride or lithium carbonate when administered in rats. Though excessive secretion of urine and excessive thirst developed more slowly in rats given lithium orotate than in those given lithium carbonate or lithium chloride. Lithium orotate is recommended to be unsafe during pregnancy and breast feeding. Lithium passes into milk and its use should be avoided during lactation as concentrations are 33 to 50% of those in the mother's serum (McKim, 2003). Several anecdotal accounts of lithium orotate were found on internet chat rooms claiming that lithium orotate caused depression.
>
>
> Comparison of the Different Forms of Lithium:
>
> An overall comparison of the differences in costs, research efficacy, and side effects between lithium orotate and lithium carbonate or citrate shows that there is considerable difference in these three areas. The cost of lithium orotate varies depending on the website where it is purchased. For ninety 120mg tablets of Serenity the monthly cost is $39.99 per month or approximately $0.44 per pill. Two-hundred 120mg tablets of Advanced Research costs $12.99 per month or approximately $0.06 per ill. One hundred 135mg tablets of Life Link totals $12.00 per months or approximately $0.12 per pill. One hundred and fifty 300mg tablets of lithium carbonate or citrate on the other costs approximately $25.00 per month or almost $0.17 per pill.
>
> Dr. Nieper and Dr. Sartori’s claims are based only on subjective case study reports. A search on the National Library of Medicine’s (2003) website indicate that there have been no double-blind controlled studies on the effects of lithium orotate for any medical or health related purposes. Thus the claims made by Dr. Nieper and Dr. Satori are based on weak scientific evidence. Smith (1976) reports that pharmacokinetics of the lithium orotate do not differ from lithium chloride or lithium carbonate when administered in rats. Furthermore, according to Garbutt, West, Carey, Lohr, & Crews (1999) suggestions that it might be useful in treating alcoholism are unfounded. Lithium is not useful for treating patients who have alcohol dependence without other psychiatric conditions. There is limited research on the effects of lithium in primary alcoholics without comorbid mood disorders. According to Picket & O’Dell (1992) there is no credible research to support the supplemental or medically unsupervised use of lithium for any purpose. There are no indications for the supplemental use of lithium. If lithium dosage is too low, you will derive no benefit. There is little research on the claims that lithium orotate is absent of the side effects that accompany lithium carbonate or citrate. What research has been done by Smith and Schou (1979) indicates that the renal side effects of lithium orotate may be more severe than carbonate or citrate in rats.
> Lithium orotate is not regulated by the FDA. It is marketed as a “dietary supplement”. According to Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) of 1994 (Food & Drug Administration, 2003) a dietary supplement is
> a product taken by mouth that contains a dietary ingredient intended to supplement the diet. The dietary ingredients in these products may include: vitamins, minerals, herbs or other botanicals, amino acids, and substances such as enzymes, organ tissues, glandulars, and metabolites. Dietary supplements can also be extracts or concentrates, and may be found in many forms such as tablets, capsules, softgels, gelcaps, liquids, or powders (page 1).
> Because it is not regulated by the FDA the claims that the various companies make about it’s effectiveness are not regulated by the government but instead by the company. A company is responsible for determining that its products are safe and that claims they make about them are substantiated by adequate evidence to show that they are not false or misleading. This means that the supplements do not need approval from FDA before they are marketed. Companies do not have to provide the FDA with the evidence it relies on to substantiate safety or effectiveness before or after it markets its products. In addition it is also interesting to note that Dr. Nieper has a history with the federal government. The 1994 FDA Import Alert states that Dr. Nieper was accused of importing numerous drugs into the United States without FDA approval (FDA, 1994).
> Conclusion:
> In conclusion there is some of anecdotal evidence that lithium orotate is an effective treatment for the various health concerns it claims to help. However, there have been no controlled research studies that validate these claims. Why Dr. Nieper never followed up his patients claims with more rigorous research remains a mystery. Is it possible that he was merely a “snake-oil” salesman trying to make a quick buck or is there something we are missing? It appears that many in the complementary and alternative healing community believe that there is something missing in modern medicine that does not fully address our health concerns. But even if this is the case and lithium orotate is beneficial, then it would seem logical to pursue further research. This would not only validate their claims but also reduce the risk of harm. Harm that has all too often occurred in the absent minded world of nutritional supplements, see ephedra and phen/fen.
>
> References
> Food & Drug Administration (1994). Automatic Detention of New Drugs Promoted by
> Dr. Hans Nieper of West Germany. Retrieved June 26, 2003 from www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora import ia6628.html
>
> Food & Drug Administration (2003). Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act
> (DSHEA) of 1994. Retrieved June 26, 2003 from www.cfsan.fda.gov
>
> Garbutt, J.C., West, S.L., Carey, T.S., Lohr, K.N., & Crews, F.T. (1999).
> Pharmacological treatment of alcohol dependence: a review of the evidence. JAMA, 281(14), 1318-25.
>
> McKim, W. A. (2003). Drugs & Behavior: An Introduction to Behavioral
> Pharmacology (5th ed.). Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Prentice Hall.
>
> Nieper, H. A. (1973). The clinical applications of lithium orotate: A two year study.
> Agressologie, 14(6), 407-411.
>
> Physicians Desk Reference (2003). Lithium. Retrieved June 25, 2003 from
> www.pdrhealth.com
>
> Pickett, E.E., & O'Dell, B.L. (1992). Evidence for dietary essentiality of lithium in the
> rat. Biol Trace Elem Res, 34, 299-319.
>
> Satori, H.E. (1986). Lithium orotate in the treatment of alcoholism and related
> conditions. Alcohol, 3(2), 97-100.
>
> Smith, D. F. (1976). Lithium orotate, carbonate and chloride: pharmacokinetics,
> polyuria in rats. British Journal of Pharmacology, 56, 399-402.
>
> Smith, D. F., Schou, M. (1979). Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats
> given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate. Journal of
> Pharmaceutical Pharmacology, 31(3), 161-163.
>
> Yung, C.Y. (1984). A review of clinical trials of lithium in neurology. Pharmacology,
> Biochemistry, & Behavior. 21, 1, 57-64.
>
>
> Further Readings
>
>
> Kling, M. A., Manowitz, P., Pollack, I.W. (1978). Rat brain and serum lithium
> concentrations after acute injections of lithium carbonate and orotate. Journal of
> Pharmaceutical Pharmacology, ;30(6), 368-70.
>
> Nieper, H. A. (1999). The Curious Man. Avery Publishing Group.
>
>
>
Posted by joebob on December 25, 2003, at 14:23:22
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « Michael Motter, posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2003, at 16:35:31
orotate we might have some reports of the problems you mention, in vivo on human being i mean
do you have any.......i would much appreciate the info, have searched for and not found it
best
Posted by mysteryroad on December 29, 2003, at 21:06:59
In reply to i was hoping by now with all the people using the, posted by joebob on December 25, 2003, at 14:23:22
I rarely come to this board anymore because I'm just spinning my wheels when it comes to all this board talk..Meds are just barely useful for me and I have given up hope one will ever work properly..There are no answers..There is no reason that I can think why I should hang around this earth and suffer so..I listen to my roommate downstairs, who laughs day in and out, and enjoys life no matter what.. while you and I live in this black, colorless world..If I had no one who cared about me, I'd be outta here in a big way..
In the mean time, I'll just live this way, way, inferior life..I am on 1200 mgs of carbonate/day..Like EVERY med I have tried for bp/major depression, the side effects are unbearable..Besides my thyroid slowing down on top of it's already lethargic attitude, I have the worst jaw pain ever..It's with me all day and night..I can't stand the pressure in my head anymore..The good from the carbonate is that it has helped my sleep more soundly and kept me somewhat balanced..But I'm gonna have to wean off it now.Some things never change..
BTW, the ororate threw me into deep depression by day 2..If the stuff truly worked, it would be all over the airwaves..Hopefully it works for others..
M.R
Posted by stebu on March 8, 2004, at 21:52:06
In reply to Ororate=depression, posted by mysteryroad on December 29, 2003, at 21:06:59
I've been on Lithium Orotate since I wrote in Sept/93. My depression has not come back. I've been able to titrate off my effexor. This is the time of year when I become hypomanic. As I began to speed up my pdoc increased my Lithium orotate, and I responded right away. I do have a tiny blood level of lithium, and continue to take a small dose of trileptal. I don't have any side effects from Lithium Orotate. I think it's great.
Posted by guttersnipe on March 28, 2004, at 23:56:12
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by stebu on March 8, 2004, at 21:52:06
Hi folks,
I'm new here ... I registered primarily to ask others about lithium orotate, and about bipolar folks' successes (and/or lack thereof) with taurine, tyrosine, B vitamins, magnasium, and the other stuff that some research suggests is helpful for bipolar (anyone into Vipassana? I'm getting back into it after years of neglect; kirtan too). To Stebu and others who are using lithium orotate under a MD's supervision/with an MD's knowledge: what do your docs have to say about the Smith and Schou (1979) study about kidney function? I have read a number of anecdotal reports that the orotate form of lithium often works (although not always) for bipolars, and I am aware that many MDs into holistic/alternative care are recommending it to their patients with some good anecdotal success rates, but I would hate to find out after taking it for a while that I've permanently turned my kidneys into jello or over-salted my brain.
I found out the hard way that Effexor is pure poison (for me, at least -- nearly 2 years of 24/7 mixed-state or dysphoric hypomania before I figured out, with no help from my psychiatrist until I suggested the idea, that the Effexor might be doing more harm than good ... same doc who failed to even screen me for bipolar even though the symptoms of my diagnosed GAD are virtually identical to a dysphoric bipolar II). I don't want to repeat the same mistake with lithium orotate that I made with Effexor.
I went off all meds about 3 months ago, except for the occasional left-over Ativan or perhaps a few cocktails when the ride got too wild (and it's been a wild, rapid-cycling ride). I am taking the supplements mentioned above, along with theanine and a multivitamin and a multimineral, and began taking lithium orotate about a week ago (with skepticism, as I am aware of the lack of methodologically sound research) .
It might be just coincidence, as I've read that lithium often takes 2-3 weeks to take full effect and I've only been on the lithium orotate for a week, but the last two days I have been more stable than I've been in years -- I haven't thrown a single object at the wall in a fit of mixed-state rage, nor spent a single moment curled up in the closet bawling in despair. Yeah, probably just the supplements kicking in, and/or coincidence ... I'll give it a good while longer to see whether the lithium orotate stuff works.
Any replies welcome.
Posted by stebu on March 29, 2004, at 8:36:05
In reply to Re: lithium orotate? (other minerals, etc.) » stebu, posted by guttersnipe on March 28, 2004, at 23:56:12
>I'm really happy you wrote, happier still you are getting some relief and taking good care of yourself. I noticed the effects of Lithium Orotate right away, no real delay in onset of benifits. The cautions in the Smith Schou study weren't based on much to my way of thinking. So far, my creatin clearance is normal, as is urinary output.
I started into my hypomanic phase in Febuary. Lithium Oratate has done a great job controling it. I have had to take my dose up considerably, I was using 2 tabs TID, bumped up to 3TID, now I'm on 4 TID. LO does seem to have a short half life. I have had a dose dependent response, and can tell if I miss a dose, and I get a strong mood stabilizing effect from a larger dose. My blood level of lithium has not yet risen above .1. It's doing a great job for me. My psychiatrist is impressed.
On safety, my doc speaks nationally with one of the world's leading experts on lithium, a Doctor Swann, when I first considered going on LO, my doc consulted with Dr. Swann. He basically said lithium is lithium and it shouldn't hurt me. The only side effect I've noticed on the higher doses is a slight change in balance.
I use mega doses of B vitamins, L-lysine, Taurine, No caffine, vegatarian Diet. I teach yoga, pranayama, meditation,and asana are all a big part of what keeps me healthy.
I'd love to hear individually from anyone trying or thinking of trying Lithium Orotate. My email is : dreamingnow8@hotmail.com Hope this helps. Steve
Hi folks,
>
> I'm new here ... I registered primarily to ask others about lithium orotate, and about bipolar folks' successes (and/or lack thereof) with taurine, tyrosine, B vitamins, magnasium, and the other stuff that some research suggests is helpful for bipolar (anyone into Vipassana? I'm getting back into it after years of neglect; kirtan too). To Stebu and others who are using lithium orotate under a MD's supervision/with an MD's knowledge: what do your docs have to say about the Smith and Schou (1979) study about kidney function? I have read a number of anecdotal reports that the orotate form of lithium often works (although not always) for bipolars, and I am aware that many MDs into holistic/alternative care are recommending it to their patients with some good anecdotal success rates, but I would hate to find out after taking it for a while that I've permanently turned my kidneys into jello or over-salted my brain.
>
> I found out the hard way that Effexor is pure poison (for me, at least -- nearly 2 years of 24/7 mixed-state or dysphoric hypomania before I figured out, with no help from my psychiatrist until I suggested the idea, that the Effexor might be doing more harm than good ... same doc who failed to even screen me for bipolar even though the symptoms of my diagnosed GAD are virtually identical to a dysphoric bipolar II). I don't want to repeat the same mistake with lithium orotate that I made with Effexor.
>
> I went off all meds about 3 months ago, except for the occasional left-over Ativan or perhaps a few cocktails when the ride got too wild (and it's been a wild, rapid-cycling ride). I am taking the supplements mentioned above, along with theanine and a multivitamin and a multimineral, and began taking lithium orotate about a week ago (with skepticism, as I am aware of the lack of methodologically sound research) .
>
> It might be just coincidence, as I've read that lithium often takes 2-3 weeks to take full effect and I've only been on the lithium orotate for a week, but the last two days I have been more stable than I've been in years -- I haven't thrown a single object at the wall in a fit of mixed-state rage, nor spent a single moment curled up in the closet bawling in despair. Yeah, probably just the supplements kicking in, and/or coincidence ... I'll give it a good while longer to see whether the lithium orotate stuff works.
>
> Any replies welcome.
>
Posted by guttersnipe on March 29, 2004, at 13:58:33
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by stebu on March 29, 2004, at 8:36:05
> I teach yoga, pranayama, meditation,and asana are all a big part of what keeps me healthy.
>Thanks, Steve -- I appreciate the info on lithium orotate, supplements, etc. As you're a yoga teacher, I wonder what is your opinion of "Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan?" It seems to be the only kundalini practice available in the states (as the yogis in India keep it secret except for those deemed ready to be initiated), and I've read a whole lot that makes me quite skeptical of this Yogi Bhajan fellow (if he's not an outright fraud, some of his documented conduct certainly deviates from both Sikh and yogi norms -- and he claims to be both a Sikh and a yogi), which of course makes me suspicious as to whether his purported kundalini yoga system is anything more than a little hatha yoga with some snake oil thrown in for good measure. After doing the basic hatha yoga along with some raja meditative, etc. techniques, under another instructor I studied under his system for a while a couple years ago but got very little from it and decided to keep my money. Curious what your thoughts are about this fellow and his yoga system? Thanks.
Posted by stebu on March 29, 2004, at 14:30:07
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » stebu, posted by guttersnipe on March 29, 2004, at 13:58:33
Nothing wrong with kundalini yoga, though I'm not familiar with Yogi Bajan. I would recomend a practice grounded in hatha,and raja with lots of meditation and mindfulness training to you or anyone else who is bi-polar. Thich Naht Hanh and Jack Kornfield are doing a good job covering mindfulness in book form.
Kundalini, kira, and other mostly intellectual yogas can avoid the really necessary work of body/breath, and, I think, can be a bit destablizing for us bi-polar types, if not grounded in hatha. Shoot me a personal email and I'll try to point you to a teacher. Steve
> > I teach yoga, pranayama, meditation,and asana are all a big part of what keeps me healthy.
> >
>
> Thanks, Steve -- I appreciate the info on lithium orotate, supplements, etc. As you're a yoga teacher, I wonder what is your opinion of "Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan?" It seems to be the only kundalini practice available in the states (as the yogis in India keep it secret except for those deemed ready to be initiated), and I've read a whole lot that makes me quite skeptical of this Yogi Bhajan fellow (if he's not an outright fraud, some of his documented conduct certainly deviates from both Sikh and yogi norms -- and he claims to be both a Sikh and a yogi), which of course makes me suspicious as to whether his purported kundalini yoga system is anything more than a little hatha yoga with some snake oil thrown in for good measure. After doing the basic hatha yoga along with some raja meditative, etc. techniques, under another instructor I studied under his system for a while a couple years ago but got very little from it and decided to keep my money. Curious what your thoughts are about this fellow and his yoga system? Thanks.
Posted by mordewis on April 6, 2004, at 16:34:12
In reply to Re: lithium orotate? (other minerals, etc.) » stebu, posted by guttersnipe on March 28, 2004, at 23:56:12
I have a Mental Health link on my website, http://moss.witchesgathering.com , where I discuss the problems I've had locally and the supplements I'm using. I have links to other sites, and a full document linked in that reports studies on lithium orotate.
I've been taking lithium orotate solidly for about 5 months now and on and off before that. I think it works just fine.
Posted by mordewis on April 6, 2004, at 16:38:32
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » stebu, posted by guttersnipe on March 29, 2004, at 13:58:33
I learn Raja Kundalini from my guru, Rudrananda, and my paramguru also teaches it. It's a very simple kundalini yoga method, very easy to learn. I also am doing Raja Yoga, which is based on Samkhyin techniques, also with my guru. Since my guru lives in Colo Springs and my paramguru in Seattle, I would say that the method you know of is NOT the only one available in the States. :D
Posted by guttersnipe on April 6, 2004, at 19:25:26
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mordewis on April 6, 2004, at 16:38:32
Thanks for the info!
> I learn Raja Kundalini from my guru, Rudrananda, and my paramguru also teaches it. It's a very simple kundalini yoga method, very easy to learn. I also am doing Raja Yoga, which is based on Samkhyin techniques, also with my guru. Since my guru lives in Colo Springs and my paramguru in Seattle, I would say that the method you know of is NOT the only one available in the States. :D
Posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 19:28:15
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by guttersnipe on April 6, 2004, at 19:25:26
Nice way to hijack a thread..What a mess.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2004, at 20:05:33
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 19:28:15
> Nice way to hijack a thread..
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by guttersnipe on April 6, 2004, at 20:50:52
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 19:28:15
> Nice way to hijack a thread..What a mess.
Mystery Person,
I did not "hijack" anything. My post asked about others' experiences with lithium orotate, what their doctors have to say about its effect (if any) on kidney function, and since this is the "alternative" forum it seemed sensible to ask whether people are supplementing lithium orotate and if so, with what. Then I described my own experience (on that note, that the lithium orotate continues to work for me).
Before I posted anything to this forum, I lurked for a while on various threads, and there is quite evidently no unwritten rule against submitting a post that includes a topic other than that addressed by the first post of the thread (as, I note, your post did). Indeed, I have never been in any internet fora along the lines of this one where that was the case. Discussing topics related to the original topic of discussion is the natural process of dialogue ... which is a big part of what this forum is about, right? So I don't see discussion of nutritional or lifestyle changes made in conjunction with taking lithium orotate to be very far off-topic at all, and to the extent that they are off-topic, they are so in a way that seems to me to be perfectly appropriate for an exchange of experiences and views in the "alternative" forum.
If there is some secret protocol for posting here, other than what I read when I signed up and other than the basic rule of "be polite," then please share it with me so that I will not unwittingly transgress its strictures.
Posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 21:15:46
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » mysteryroad, posted by guttersnipe on April 6, 2004, at 20:50:52
Can you let me know when you get back to the thread title about lithium orotate? Or maybe I should just read through your boring little private alternative..No better yet, maybe Dr. Bob should just ban me for life for being uncivil.
Please..the fragility of some people just outright depresses me..
Posted by guttersnipe on April 7, 2004, at 16:02:17
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 21:15:46
> Can you let me know when you get back to the thread title about lithium orotate? Or maybe I should just read through your boring little private alternative..No better yet, maybe Dr. Bob should just ban me for life for being uncivil.
> Please..the fragility of some people just outright depresses me..Mystery Complainer: you know, there are decaffeinated varieties available now that taste just as good as the real thing! You might give that a try, as you could stand to chill out a bit.
And sure, I'll let you know when and if lithium orotate is the *only* topic discussed on this thread (by the way, I did note in a post yesterday that that lithium orotate stuff is continuing to work for me, but evidently you overlooked that). Until then, why don't you just stay away from this thread, as you seem to have nothing to contribute other than snotty remarks?
As for discussion of supplements and/or practices that might be complementary to lithium orotate, it's too bad that you find that to be boring, as you might benefit trying some of them. At the least, they might improve your surly disposition.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 2004, at 19:57:47
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 21:15:46
> maybe Dr. Bob should just ban me for life for being uncivil.
No, just one week.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 2004, at 20:01:35
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » mysteryroad, posted by guttersnipe on April 7, 2004, at 16:02:17
> you could stand to chill out a bit.
>
> evidently you overlooked that)... why don't you just stay away from this thread, as you seem to have nothing to contribute other than snotty remarks?
>
> your surly disposition.Please be sensitive to the feelings of others even if yours have been hurt and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by mordewis on April 16, 2004, at 0:39:35
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » mysteryroad, posted by guttersnipe on April 7, 2004, at 16:02:17
Since we're talking about lithium orotate again, I would like to say that several of my friends who are taking lithium orotate had the same experience that I did, switching between forms, from the capsules back to the pills. In each of our cases, it felt like we needed to increase the number of pills we were taking. I'm going back to the capsules, they are only slightly more expensive -- the capsules I'm getting at $11.95 for 120, the pills are $12.20 for 200 (I know there are higher prices, just letting you know what I'm paying in case you're paying more -- or less).
Posted by bruce_w6 on April 17, 2004, at 14:53:08
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mordewis on April 16, 2004, at 0:39:35
It is working for me along with 250 mg Lamictal
Posted by bruce_w6 on April 17, 2004, at 15:55:09
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « BarbaraCat, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:58:58
How much Lithium Orotate are you guys taking.
I am takin 4x120 mg a day (2x120 Am & 2x120 PM).
It seems to be working, my mind racing is a little less. I also take 250mg Lamictal & 12.5mg Seroguil for sleep.
Can I up the lithium Orotate to 3-120's am & 3-120's pm?
Posted by LOOPS on April 20, 2004, at 12:05:40
In reply to How Much, posted by bruce_w6 on April 17, 2004, at 15:55:09
Hi -
I've been taking lith orotate 3 tabs a day for the past 6 months. I'm thinking of upping to 4.
Effect is very subtle but profound. It doesn't do that much for my anxiety, but I haven't been on any wild shopping sprees since I've been on it, so my bank account's a lot happier.
I used to have an obsession about buying shampoo of all things. My husband thinks it's funny, which is a relief because it's quite a ridiculous obsession to have. Now we have so many bottles we won't have to buy any more shampoo for at least a couple of years.
My hair looks good though!
Since being on the lith, I haven't bought any more shampoo, which gives me a chance to use up what I have.
Also I don't go out on drinking binges like before. I would get very down, write a very dark composition, then go out and get very happy trashed. Complete turn-around in emtions within a couple of hours.
Now I'm on a more even-keel. Also I don't like what drinking does to me (disrupts sleep), so I keep it to a minimum (beer lover). I heard lith orotate helps deal with alchohol cravings. Well it does a little bit, but I still drink - just not so much. This is why I'm thinking of upping to 4, as I want to stop drinking during the week, but find getting rid of drinking altogethe is very difficult.
Loops
Posted by Rob25 on April 26, 2004, at 0:55:24
In reply to How Much, posted by bruce_w6 on April 17, 2004, at 15:55:09
I'm doing great on lithium orotate taking 2 120's 3 X a day. IOW, 6 a day. I started out on less, but it didn't handle everything. I gradually upped the dose by one for a few days, then another one, etc. until I got to 6 and felt great. After a few months I tried going back to a lower dose of 4 a day, but didn't feel as even and "normal" (whatever that really is.) : )
Hope this helps.
Rob
Posted by stebu on April 26, 2004, at 2:52:09
In reply to Re: How Much, posted by Rob25 on April 26, 2004, at 0:55:24
I'm in the same place on dosage, with about the same experience. During seasonal hypomania I've gone as high as 4x 120mg three times a day, it did slightly affect my balance, but my lithium blood level has stayed at .1 even up to ten tabs a day. In general for me and a few others three doses of two 120mg tabs is about right. I think Lithium Orotate has a short half life, so it's very important to take a divided dose throughout the day.
Steve
Posted by Rob25 on April 26, 2004, at 13:32:41
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « Michael Motter, posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2003, at 16:35:31
Hi, Michael --
Your other comment to me in a different thread got moved and the move didn't show who the posts were to, so I decided to comment here.
You suggested that I read articles about Dr. Nieper and talk to a pdoc before using lithium orotate.
Actually, I had previously read YOUR article above about Hans Nieper and lithium orotate. : ) And I had formerly read info about Dr. Nieper's products not being let into the US. One of the articles had the exact paperwork describing the reason, which was because the labels were in German.
And despite what the reasons may or may not have been, I've had a long and ugly history with this illness. I've been all over the place and never had those nice periods of stability that other bipolars seem to get. I've been taking lithium orotate with the blessing of my pdoc, mainly because nothing else has worked well for me. Some things probably would have except I'm apparently ultra-sensitive to side effects.
I've now been completely stable for the many months now for the first time in my life. The only time during this period I wasn't doing well is when I went off the lithium orotate for two weeks because I couldn't believe something so cheap and easy to take could be doing all this--maybe I had just hit one of those great stable periods of the cosmic bipolar cycle. But two weeks off was enough for me--and everyone around me--to realize what was making the difference.
Yeah, I know that as far as some people are concerned, my case is just anectodal. S'ok with me. I'm just glad this stuff works for me. And it has worked for lots of people I've told about it, too. So people can try to dredge up anything negative they can find about lithium orotate. All I know is that the stuff works for me and lots of other people too.
Also, I believe that kidney info you refer to is flawed.
My understanding of the test that was done regarding the kidney fuction comparison between lithium orotate and lithium carbonate is this: (btw, I have studied both the abstract and the full text of the article of the research done in 1979 by Smith and Schou.)
They injected rats with both lithium carbonate and lithium orotate (and a neutral injection of sodium chloride) and then measured kidney functioning, urine flow, etc. The results were that the lithium orotate seemed to cause lower kidney functioning.
However, the HUGE and apparently completely overlooked point here is this--they injected the rats with the SAME amounts of lithum orotate and lithium carbonate. Anyone see a problem here?? The point is, people DON'T TAKE the same enormous amounts of lithium orotate as they have to take with lithium carbonate and lithium citrate!! An effective dose is typically like 15 mg of elemental lithium from lithium orotate compared to 126 mg of elemental lithium from lithium carbonate, which is more than 800% more lithium!
So when I see people quote that study, I wonder why nobody's comparing apples to apples. Instead the study compares grapes to watermelons and the results end up skewed and completely indifferent to the way lithium orotate is administered in actual use.
Thank you for your concern and input, though. I think it's very helpful for people to present their thoughts to each other as we all try to get through this.
Rob
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