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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 142. Go back in thread:
Posted by Twinleaf on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:28
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing... » Twinleaf, posted by alexandra_k on December 2, 2013, at 16:52:26
I mostly don't read these threads at all. I wanted to see if anything which would seem constructive to me had happened - big mistake on my part!
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:29
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing..., posted by Twinleaf on December 2, 2013, at 17:41:12
what if other people do get something from these conversations...
would you still prefer these conversations to go away. you know, in case you happen to read them in future and still find them not speaking to you.
Posted by Twinleaf on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:29
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing... » Twinleaf, posted by alexandra_k on December 2, 2013, at 18:30:58
No. If you find them helpful , I think they should continue. I don't read them very much, so I could have missed it easily, but you are the first person I have seen who has expressed a positive response to the discussions on this topic.
I respect your response and opinion; I expect you to do the same.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:29
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing... » alexandra_k, posted by Twinleaf on December 2, 2013, at 19:15:42
I do respect your response and opinion :-)
I... Sometimes I don't get anything from certain threads, either.
But... I think Lou gets something. And I think... Not very many people know how to help Lou. So...
Yeah.
Er... I try not to read some posts because I... Feel a lot like you do, I think. But I'm glad that someone can help.
And I thought that what Bob said here was good. About people learning how to handle sh*t being thrown at them.
Something I'm trying to learn IRL is... Tolerance. To be more patient. Less... Irritable. Hostile? I don't know. I find it much easier online...
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:30
In reply to A very depressing thread.., posted by Twinleaf on December 2, 2013, at 14:58:46
> This is yet one more example of amazingly ineffective administration. It would be a blessing if discussions like this simply disappeared permanently.
I think Dr. Bob now finds himself spinning around in a vortex of perpetual circular arguments for which resolution is impossible. By now, he must be dizzy enough to have confused his internal compass; the one that would otherwise help him to judge the direction that the health of the community is taking. I am sometimes amused, but more often sad.
Dr. Bob,
C'mon, man...You are not guarding the rights of the entirety by allowing the incivility of the one.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:30
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.. » Twinleaf, posted by SLS on December 2, 2013, at 20:04:12
I remember when I was doing a tech course in personal training...
And this Maaori guy in class was like 'that's racist miss!' every five minutes to one of the people who were teaching us.
And to start with her expression was like 'don't be silly'. And then it was like 'holy sh*t - maybe I'm doing something that actually is offensive to some minority group' and eventually it was openly 'why do you think that is racist?'The answer (from a bridge perspective) was 'everybody is a little bit, miss'.
And, well, it was that that was their point.
I think everyone felt a little bit sad for her moment of panic --
I wonder if Lou kind of does the same. With the concern that people are racist (is that the relevant term here?) against the Jews (I don't even quite get what that means / know how to identify the relevant class of people here).
There is that little moment of panic or something. That upsets people? I don't know...
Of course nobody likes to feel accused of something untrue.
But Bob has suggested trauma... And a number of people understand trauma. What trauma can feel like. How there can be hypervigilance.
And perhaps it is uncivil to suggest that perhaps some of Lou's concerns might possibly stem from hyper-vigilance rather than from people who rightly experience that moment of panic.
Sometimes people's issues kind of sort of collide...
I feel like... I think that...
Bob helps Lou. And most people don't know how to help him. I think that Lou finds it hard to get help in person. I'd hazard a guess that he finds it much (much much much) harder than most. I do get that some people feel hurt that they feel accused by Lou... But, er, I also feel that they are more likely to be able to come to appreciate that the accusation isn't personal... And deal with that... Than Lou is likely to get empathy and compassion IRL. Or anywhere else.
Does this kinda make some kinda sorta sense?
I don't begrudge him that. And if a by-product is that we gotta be a little more resilient on certain threads (should we choose to follow them) then, well, the good far outweighs the harm. And thank Bob for that.
I think.
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:30
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.., posted by alexandra_k on December 2, 2013, at 21:21:44
Is there nothing to be learned through negative reinforcement? Posting blocks are not the only tool available, although they can be useful for recidivism. It might be very constructive to simply impart through verbal statements that it is uncivil to accuse former deputies of promoting antisemitism through inaction.
Are we witnessing an attempt at cyberpsychotherapy? Are the rules of civility suspended when Dr. Bob treats us?
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:31
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.. » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on December 2, 2013, at 22:22:00
I have noticed these new elements also - Dr. Bob assuming the role of a kind of therapist in his interactions with some posters as well as presenting himself as an ethical and moral authority superior to the community of posters. Both of these roles are extremely dangerous and unethical for anyone to assume in an online forum, even if they only occur occasionally.
I continue to appreciate his support and his continuing to make the site available to us, but I would like very much to see him confine his activities to administrating Babble in a fair and moderate manner. This is by far the greatest gift he could give us.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:31
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.., posted by Twinleaf on December 2, 2013, at 22:48:31
you are very fortunate to be one of these people who is able to get appropriate therapy irl - are you not?
i think it is rather easier for one of these people to have sympathy for the position that bob should back the f*ck off and leave others to it.
if you were unable to get the therapy that you required then i think you might be a little more inclined to feel different.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:31
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.. » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on December 2, 2013, at 22:22:00
> it is uncivil to accuse former deputies of promoting antisemitism through inaction.
I think the idea is that those in positions of power should be MORE LIKELY to (or perhaps MORE CAPABLE OF) understanding that: hurting people do lash out, sometimes. or that hurting people do present themselves in ways that make (ordinary everyday people) less likely to help, sometimes. that, er, that was part of what it is to have mental health issues, even.
deputies... I thought... were picked because they were less likely to lash out in response to attack than other posters would be. why? because they were more likely to understand that sometimes hurting people do lash out (sometimes) than other people were.
but really... all this aside...
who do you think needs more help - lou - or those who lou hurts? who do you think is more likely to receive help irl?
it is easy to have empathy for...
those who it is easy to have empathy for.people...
typically...
disgust me.
sigh.
i suppose that is bad and wrong. but there it is.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:32
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.., posted by alexandra_k on December 2, 2013, at 23:29:13
god dammit.
if there are 'magic words' (and of course there are) then people better explicitly teach me.
because if interview is about (and i'm suspecting it is) willingness to contradict oneself / say something one knows to be false for the sake of human connection...
then the whole field can go f*ck itself.
for obvious reasons. i would have thought. as a person who actually cares about *health* rather than f*ck*ng happy puppy noises. for instance.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2013, at 2:17:41
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.. » Twinleaf, posted by SLS on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:30
> Dr. Bob just confines himself to platitudes.
>
> This is yet one more example of amazingly ineffective administration.
>
> Twinleaf> the incivility of the one.
>
> - ScottPlease don't post anything that could lead others (including me) to feel accused or put down.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2013, at 8:29:01
In reply to Re: please be civil » Twinleaf » SLS, posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2013, at 2:17:41
> > the incivility of the one.
> >
> > - Scott
> Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me) to feel accused or put down.Okay. I apologize.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on December 3, 2013, at 8:56:04
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.., posted by Twinleaf on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:31
The hospital here has now started advertising cyber consultations with nurses and docs. Demand for medical is higher than they can handle. It seems it will be the wave of the future. Phillipa
Posted by sigismund on December 3, 2013, at 12:43:08
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.., posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:31
>people...
>typically...
>disgust me.
>sigh.
>i suppose that is bad and wrong. but there it is.
10/10
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2013, at 12:47:34
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.., posted by sigismund on December 3, 2013, at 12:43:08
> >people...
>
> >typically...
>
> >disgust me.
>
> >sigh.
>
> >i suppose that is bad and wrong. but there it is.
>
> 10/10What does "10/10" mean?
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2013, at 17:16:12
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing... » Twinleaf, posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:29
> About people learning how to handle sh*t being thrown at them.
I really don't understand why one should have to learn this. I manage to find sufficient places where sh*t is not flung at me, to wish to learn how to accept it gracefully.
And honestly if there were no place to go where sh*t would not be flung at me, I'd just as soon fulfill my lifelong dream of being a hermit.
I personally didn't become a deputy because I realized that people were likely to throw sh*t because they couldn't do any better. I personally believe people *can* be capable of better.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 17:23:02
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing..., posted by Dinah on December 3, 2013, at 17:16:12
> I really don't understand why one should have to learn this. I manage to find sufficient places where sh*t is not flung at me, to wish to learn how to accept it gracefully.
you are lucky that you were able to find a refuge.
> And honestly if there were no place to go where sh*t would not be flung at me, I'd just as soon fulfill my lifelong dream of being a hermit.
you are lucky if you can find a place where other people will leave you alone.
> I personally didn't become a deputy because I realized that people were likely to throw sh*t because they couldn't do any better. I personally believe people *can* be capable of better.
what if... someone can't. because of trauma, say. what if the only way they can learn is if... someone can put up with a little sh*t being thrown at them for a time.
?
Posted by sigismund on December 3, 2013, at 17:50:24
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.. » sigismund, posted by SLS on December 3, 2013, at 12:47:34
It means I often feel like that, and it includes me as the object of the disgust.
I guess disgust is the right word.
Just something I feel a lot.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 17:56:00
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.. » SLS, posted by sigismund on December 3, 2013, at 17:50:24
did you read "nausea"?
Posted by Phillipa on December 3, 2013, at 18:09:15
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing..., posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 17:23:02
Problem is from where I feel this thread began is goes on forever. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2013, at 18:30:42
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing..., posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 17:23:02
And perhaps it can also be healthy to realize that one needn't put up with sh*t being hurled at them.
(There is also the question of how much is "a little" and "time to time".)
We have different tastes, Alex.
Posted by sigismund on December 3, 2013, at 19:28:42
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.., posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 17:56:00
When I was in my last year of school, yes, but I think I didn't get it at all. Same thing with The Catcher in the Rye at that age. I'm not sure why. Perhaps I needed it spelled out in black and white, which could be why I liked King Lear so much.
Posted by Toph on December 4, 2013, at 12:18:25
In reply to A very depressing thread.., posted by Twinleaf on December 3, 2013, at 2:10:27
The thread is exhausting to me because of the seemingly perpetual cycle of the community trying to change Lou, Lou trying to change Bob, and Bob trying to change the community. Around and around and around it goes.
Posted by Twinleaf on December 4, 2013, at 15:13:08
In reply to Re: A very depressing thread.. » Twinleaf, posted by Toph on December 4, 2013, at 12:18:25
Yes, you described perfectly why it is so depressing and frustrating. It would be so nice if all this effort resulted in even a little growth or new thinking.
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