![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 158 to 182 of 795. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 11:50:11
In reply to Re: Lou's response-uhnpsean, posted by SLS on October 14, 2013, at 9:23:32
> > The intent is not an issue here, for I can not know one's intent when they post statements that could arouse anti-Semitic feelings. What is at issue here is that there could be harm to Jews inflicted by the statements here that could arouse anti-Semitic feelings...
>
> "Could" this and "could" that...
>
> These are your hypotheses for which you never demonstrate evidence of occurrence.
>
> Can you replace the word "could" with the word "does" in your posits of antisemitism. Do you know of anyone on Psycho-Babble who has been harmed by the posts you cite as promoting civic disharmony?
>
>
> - ScottFriends,
It is written here,[...these are your hypotheses for which you never demonstrate evidence of occurrence...].
The demonstration of theharm that could come to Jews when anti-Semitic statement are allowed to stand in a community is in the historical record. And to see how this is promulgated historically, see the following video.
Lou
To see this video:
A. Bring p Google
B. Type in:
[ youtube,UDv1aqbWRE0 ]
after the "v" is a "one"
after the "E" there is a "zero"
Posted by SLS on October 14, 2013, at 14:31:45
In reply to Lou's response-phozderheyttwdjz, posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 11:50:11
> The demonstration of the harm that could come to Jews when anti-Semitic statement are allowed to stand in a community is in the historical record.
What you ask for is illogical.
I have yet to see antisemitism in any of the posts you cite, even those that describe a belief in the necessity to go through Jesus to get to heaven or to be required to be circumcised to get to heaven. When you find antisemitism in a current post, perhaps then we can draw from the historical record. For now, your attachment to posts that are many years old, and your requesting the moderator to remove them would create more problems than would be solved. There would be concerns regarding the constant editing of content and needing a cumbersome protocol to review the entire history of posts on Psycho-Babble.
Do you think your history of posting has been conducive to civic harmony? This is a critical question, given your use of civic harmony as a benchmark of civility. If civic harmony were the measure of civility, you would probably be blocked from posting indefinitely as is demonstrated by people's reactions to your posting behaviors. However, civic harmony alone cannot be sufficient to determine civility. It is possible that only one person in the community knows the truth and feels compelled to inform and persuade everyone else to consider his pleas.
Your litany of listings of antisemitic posts is untenable. You have not managed to identify a single one. Not a single one. If you have a problem with a Christian expressing their belief that one must go through Jesus to get to Heaven, then let's discuss that and come to a resolution. Perhaps you can compare and contrast that belief with that of Jews that a male must be circumcised to get to Heaven.
----------------------------------------------
John 14:6
"No one gets to the Father but through me."
----------------------------------------------
There no unanimity among theologians as to what this passage in the New Testament means. Is the "Father" a reference to salvation and Heaven or, rather, to creating a closer bond with God while on Earth?
QUESTION: Is this reference the one and only problem you have with posts regarding Christianity?
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 14:50:18
In reply to Expression of religious beliefs - What is Uncivil? » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on October 14, 2013, at 14:31:45
> > The demonstration of the harm that could come to Jews when anti-Semitic statement are allowed to stand in a community is in the historical record.
>
> What you ask for is illogical.
>
> I have yet to see antisemitism in any of the posts you cite, even those that describe a belief in the necessity to go through Jesus to get to heaven or to be required to be circumcised to get to heaven. When you find antisemitism in a current post, perhaps then we can draw from the historical record. For now, your attachment to posts that are many years old, and your requesting the moderator to remove them would create more problems than would be solved. There would be concerns regarding the constant editing of content and needing a cumbersome protocol to review the entire history of posts on Psycho-Babble.
>
> Do you think your history of posting has been conducive to civic harmony? This is a critical question, given your use of civic harmony as a benchmark of civility. If civic harmony were the measure of civility, you would probably be blocked from posting indefinitely as is demonstrated by people's reactions to your posting behaviors. However, civic harmony alone cannot be sufficient to determine civility. It is possible that only one person in the community knows the truth and feels compelled to inform and persuade everyone else to consider his pleas.
>
> Your litany of listings of antisemitic posts is untenable. You have not managed to identify a single one. Not a single one. If you have a problem with a Christian expressing their belief that one must go through Jesus to get to Heaven, then let's discuss that and come to a resolution. Perhaps you can compare and contrast that belief with that of Jews that a male must be circumcised to get to Heaven.
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> John 14:6
>
> "No one gets to the Father but through me."
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> There no unanimity among theologians as to what this passage in the New Testament means. Is the "Father" a reference to salvation and Heaven or, rather, to creating a closer bond with God while on Earth?
>
> QUESTION: Is this reference the one and only problem you have with posts regarding Christianity?
>
>
> - Scott
>Friends,
The question here is if a post is anti-Semitic or not. There is a test that Mr Hsoung agrees to use here to make that determination. The test is if a Jew reads I, could they feel put down, or in another way, does the statement in question put down Jews.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041218/msgs/439314.html
Posted by SLS on October 14, 2013, at 15:25:23
In reply to Lou's response-whtizanantyceemetikstatement, posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 14:50:18
----------------------------------------------
>
> John 14:6
>
> "No one gets to the Father but through me."
>
> ----------------------------------------------QUESTION: Is this reference the one and only problem you have with posts regarding Christianity?
===============================================
> The test is if a Jew reads I, could they feel put down, or in another way, does the statement in question put down Jews.I think we must work on this.
This is an administrative issue to be sure.
The test, as you describe it, is too dependent on the psyche of the reader. You might find antisemitism in words that I do not. If I state that I feel you are attacking me with words because I am Jewish, even though we were just debating the best way to carve a breadfruit, I should be able to have you blocked for being antisemitic, right?
Wrong.
Get over it.
- Scott
Posted by Willful on October 14, 2013, at 16:57:58
In reply to Lou's response-whtizanantyceemetikstatement, posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 14:50:18
That is absolutely not what Bob has said.
It has nothing to do with what any Jew would think. I hope we are at least requiring that that Jew be a reasonable and prudent person, a person of discernment, and good judgment.
I hope we are insisting that that Jew understand the difference between vicious attacks and legitimate questioning or criticism.
I hope we are in a world where we require evidence, convincing arguments, openness to dialogue-- and do not simply willy-nilly hold statements in such contempt.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 17:06:57
In reply to Re: Lou's response-whtizanantyceemetikstatement, posted by Willful on October 14, 2013, at 16:57:58
> That is absolutely not what Bob has said.
>
> It has nothing to do with what any Jew would think. I hope we are at least requiring that that Jew be a reasonable and prudent person, a person of discernment, and good judgment.
>
> I hope we are insisting that that Jew understand the difference between vicious attacks and legitimate questioning or criticism.
>
> I hope we are in a world where we require evidence, convincing arguments, openness to dialogue-- and do not simply willy-nilly hold statements in such contempt.
>
> Friends,
It is written here,[...That is absolutely not what (Mr. Hsiung) has said...].
Mr Hsiung has said in his TOS to not post what could lead someone to feel put down.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 17:14:57
In reply to Expression of religious beliefs - What is Uncivil? » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on October 14, 2013, at 14:31:45
> > The demonstration of the harm that could come to Jews when anti-Semitic statement are allowed to stand in a community is in the historical record.
>
> What you ask for is illogical.
>
> I have yet to see antisemitism in any of the posts you cite, even those that describe a belief in the necessity to go through Jesus to get to heaven or to be required to be circumcised to get to heaven. When you find antisemitism in a current post, perhaps then we can draw from the historical record. For now, your attachment to posts that are many years old, and your requesting the moderator to remove them would create more problems than would be solved. There would be concerns regarding the constant editing of content and needing a cumbersome protocol to review the entire history of posts on Psycho-Babble.
>
> Do you think your history of posting has been conducive to civic harmony? This is a critical question, given your use of civic harmony as a benchmark of civility. If civic harmony were the measure of civility, you would probably be blocked from posting indefinitely as is demonstrated by people's reactions to your posting behaviors. However, civic harmony alone cannot be sufficient to determine civility. It is possible that only one person in the community knows the truth and feels compelled to inform and persuade everyone else to consider his pleas.
>
> Your litany of listings of antisemitic posts is untenable. You have not managed to identify a single one. Not a single one. If you have a problem with a Christian expressing their belief that one must go through Jesus to get to Heaven, then let's discuss that and come to a resolution. Perhaps you can compare and contrast that belief with that of Jews that a male must be circumcised to get to Heaven.
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> John 14:6
>
> "No one gets to the Father but through me."
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> There no unanimity among theologians as to what this passage in the New Testament means. Is the "Father" a reference to salvation and Heaven or, rather, to creating a closer bond with God while on Earth?
>
> QUESTION: Is this reference the one and only problem you have with posts regarding Christianity?
>
>
> - Scott
>Friends,
If you are considering posting in this thread, I am requesting that you takeinto consideration the following post to me from M hsoiung.
Lou
To see this post:
Go to the search box at the bottom of thos page and type in:
[admin,7968 ]
usually first, but look for the 7968 to be in the colored strip url
Posted by Willful on October 14, 2013, at 17:48:45
In reply to Lou's response-pheelpudown, posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 17:06:57
I was responding to this statement by Lou:
The question here is if a post is anti-Semitic or not. There is a test that Mr Hsoung agrees to use here to make that determination. The test is if a Jew reads I, could they feel put down, or in another way, does the statement in question put down Jews.
~~I meant simply that the test is not if any person, or even any Jew, feels put down-- but that we might want to qualify this to say that before we stigmatize a post, we should at least ask whether the person who feels put down has good judgment, a good basis for feeling put down. Perhaps my further hopes were statements about what I thought might contribute to belief in a person's good judgment-- and in a process of coming to a view as to whether a post is anti-semitic.
It is better not to hurt other people-- including the person whose post is being judged anti-semitic-- which is why having arguments, discernment, and all those things matter.
If someone is hurt due to their own inner tendency, for example, to be hurt or offended, is that the fault of the post? (By this I am not suggesting that anyone here is.) All I mean to say is that people's posts are not always what leads someone to feel hurt-- even if the post is the source of the hurt in the person's mind.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 19:37:14
In reply to Re: judgment, posted by Willful on October 14, 2013, at 17:48:45
> I was responding to this statement by Lou:
>
> The question here is if a post is anti-Semitic or not. There is a test that Mr Hsoung agrees to use here to make that determination. The test is if a Jew reads I, could they feel put down, or in another way, does the statement in question put down Jews.
>
> ~~I meant simply that the test is not if any person, or even any Jew, feels put down-- but that we might want to qualify this to say that before we stigmatize a post, we should at least ask whether the person who feels put down has good judgment, a good basis for feeling put down. Perhaps my further hopes were statements about what I thought might contribute to belief in a person's good judgment-- and in a process of coming to a view as to whether a post is anti-semitic.
>
> It is better not to hurt other people-- including the person whose post is being judged anti-semitic-- which is why having arguments, discernment, and all those things matter.
>
> If someone is hurt due to their own inner tendency, for example, to be hurt or offended, is that the fault of the post? (By this I am not suggesting that anyone here is.) All I mean to say is that people's posts are not always what leads someone to feel hurt-- even if the post is the source of the hurt in the person's mind.
>
> Friends,
The subject here is how can it be determined if a statement is antisemtic. Mr. Hsiung agrees that if a statement could put down Jews, then it is an anti-Semitic statement. It is the statement in and of itself that is determined if it is or is not an anti-Semitic post. The test is if the statement puts down Jews.
Now the generally accepted meaning of to {put down} something, is that if a statement is critical, humiliating, disparaging, etc. So if a statement puts down Jews, it could be something that is critical of Judaism, or humiliating to a Jew or disparaging to a Jew such as belittling or showing in the post that there is a lesser value considered for the Jew than the one using the statement that could be about Jews or use a Jew or Jews as a scapegoat or accuse Jews by blaming them for real or imagined ills of a community or blaming the for what has been used historically to arouse hatred toward the Jews. The statement could demean Judaism itself by using language that elevates another religion above Judaism. That is what {put down} generally means. The fact that one is a member of Christiandom does not put down Jews. And the fact that one is a Jew does not put down other faiths. But if the Christiandom person says that they are he only (redacted by respondent) that is different story. The Christiandom person could say that the only way for Christians is....which is OK here. But it is not OK to say that the only way for all humanity is...which includes the Jews.
Now let us look at this post and you determine if Jews are being put down or not. To see this post go to the search box at the bottom of the page and type in:
[ admin, 428781 ]
Now it may not be first so look for the 4228781 in the colored strip url
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2013, at 21:28:26
In reply to Lou's response-428781, posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 19:37:14
No
Posted by SLS on October 14, 2013, at 22:14:00
In reply to Lou's response-428781, posted by Lou Pilder on October 14, 2013, at 19:37:14
> The Christiandom person could say that the only way for Christians is....which is OK here. But it is not OK to say that the only way for all humanity is...which includes the Jews.
Why is this not okay?
Will you not go to Heaven despite the beliefs of others?
Hmm.
Okay. Now we have an answer from you. You do indeed have concerns regarding the biblical passage:
----------------------------------------------
>
> John 14:6
>
> "No one gets to the Father but through me."
>
> ----------------------------------------------Were you hurt by something someone said?
Did you personally FEEL put down, or were you just concerned that Jews COULD be put down?
I seem to remember an exchange on the Faith forum from years ago where a poster asserted that John 14:6 was the one and only truth and that salvation and Heaven were to be had only by believers in Jesus the Christ. The poster was rather zealous, I thought, but was noble in his effort to help save the world - just as you would claim to be on Psycho-Babble to save lives.
Okay. What is wrong here?
The only person I see potentially arousing feelings of antisemitism here is you. Do you understand why?
The boy who cried wolf over and over again when none existed eventually led people to hold him in low regard and no longer responded to his false warnings. When a real wolf finally appeared, the boy's cries remained ignored and unanswered. The boy was killed and devoured by the wolf.
We should remain vigilant against prejudice and hate.
Have you been the subject of prejudice and hate here on Psycho-Babble? You certainly have been the subject of anger and ridicule. I have not seen prejudice. I see no hate being directed at you as the result of antisemitism. Do you? Can you document incidents of antisemitism directed at you here on Psycho-Babble? I would like to evaluate an original post for myself. Your replies obfuscate the poster's original verbiage.
I no longer consider your complaints regarding a post made many years ago to be relevant. It is unlikely that anyone would ever see it were it not for your efforts to repost it. If that one post is the only one that you feel is motivated by antisemitism, then I consider this to be an indicator of its absence.
- Scott
Posted by 10derheart on October 14, 2013, at 23:01:28
In reply to Re: Lou's response-428781 » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on October 14, 2013, at 21:28:26
:-)
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 5:09:27
In reply to The wolf. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on October 14, 2013, at 22:14:00
> > The Christiandom person could say that the only way for Christians is....which is OK here. But it is not OK to say that the only way for all humanity is...which includes the Jews.
>
> Why is this not okay?
>
> Will you not go to Heaven despite the beliefs of others?
>
> Hmm.
>
> Okay. Now we have an answer from you. You do indeed have concerns regarding the biblical passage:
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> >
> > John 14:6
> >
> > "No one gets to the Father but through me."
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
>
> Were you hurt by something someone said?
>
> Did you personally FEEL put down, or were you just concerned that Jews COULD be put down?
>
> I seem to remember an exchange on the Faith forum from years ago where a poster asserted that John 14:6 was the one and only truth and that salvation and Heaven were to be had only by believers in Jesus the Christ. The poster was rather zealous, I thought, but was noble in his effort to help save the world - just as you would claim to be on Psycho-Babble to save lives.
>
> Okay. What is wrong here?
>
> The only person I see potentially arousing feelings of antisemitism here is you. Do you understand why?
>
> The boy who cried wolf over and over again when none existed eventually led people to hold him in low regard and no longer responded to his false warnings. When a real wolf finally appeared, the boy's cries remained ignored and unanswered. The boy was killed and devoured by the wolf.
>
> We should remain vigilant against prejudice and hate.
>
> Have you been the subject of prejudice and hate here on Psycho-Babble? You certainly have been the subject of anger and ridicule. I have not seen prejudice. I see no hate being directed at you as the result of antisemitism. Do you? Can you document incidents of antisemitism directed at you here on Psycho-Babble? I would like to evaluate an original post for myself. Your replies obfuscate the poster's original verbiage.
>
> I no longer consider your complaints regarding a post made many years ago to be relevant. It is unlikely that anyone would ever see it were it not for your efforts to repost it. If that one post is the only one that you feel is motivated by antisemitism, then I consider this to be an indicator of its absence.
>
>
> - ScottFriends,
It is written here,[...you do indeed have concerns regarding the biblical passage..].
These concerns are important because the prohibitions to me posted by Mr Hsiung prevent me from posting what I need to so that IMHO lives could be saved, life-ruining conditions and addictions could be prevented, and those in the bondage of depression and/or addiction could be delivered out from the shackles of them into a new life free from the darkness of depression and into a marvelous light of peace and joy. This could come from Jewish perspective that has been revealed to me and the prohibitions to me by Mr. Hsiung prevent me from posting such.
So it is not to me as to if anyone here does not think that the statements in question do not put down Jews, for they say what they say regardless if some posters here say they don't.
The statement in question in discussion is not the one Scott cites here. The statement in discussion is that there is a list of the top ten worst reasons for organized religion and one of those says:
[...to have their agenda not centered in Christ...].
That statement can be seen as conducive to the civic harmony and welfare of the community and supportive This is because Mr Hsiung states that one match could start a forest fire so he then does not wait to put it out and that support takes precedence and that he does what in his thinking will be good for this community as a whole. So what can be seen is what it is. It says what it says. That statement could be thought by Jews and Islamic people and all other people of religions that have their agenda not centered in Christ to be an insult to their faith for it could be thought that their faith is in the category of the "worst".
The question then becomes as to if the statement is an anti-Semitic statement, at least. The rule is that an anti-Semitic statement is one that puts down Jews. This is not determined by any member here or even Mr Hsiung himself. It is determined by what the generally accepted meaning of {put down} means. Like in elementary terms, "my bike is better than your bike" or going further, {people of my faith go to heaven and people of your faith do not}. In the latter, it took me years to have Mr Hsiung agree with me concerning a statement of that nature and reversed his thinking about the concerned statement. And I do not see anything different in the statements in discussion here as to if they put down Jews, at least. I am offering Mr Hsiung the opportunity to examine again the statements in question that I want to be purged. If he rejects that opportunity, then I have done what I could do and what I have to do.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 6:45:03
In reply to Lou's reply-duwhthavtudu » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 5:09:27
> > > The Christiandom person could say that the only way for Christians is....which is OK here. But it is not OK to say that the only way for all humanity is...which includes the Jews.
> >
> > Why is this not okay?
> >
> > Will you not go to Heaven despite the beliefs of others?
> >
> > Hmm.
> >
> > Okay. Now we have an answer from you. You do indeed have concerns regarding the biblical passage:
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > John 14:6
> > >
> > > "No one gets to the Father but through me."
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------
> >
> > Were you hurt by something someone said?
> >
> > Did you personally FEEL put down, or were you just concerned that Jews COULD be put down?
> >
> > I seem to remember an exchange on the Faith forum from years ago where a poster asserted that John 14:6 was the one and only truth and that salvation and Heaven were to be had only by believers in Jesus the Christ. The poster was rather zealous, I thought, but was noble in his effort to help save the world - just as you would claim to be on Psycho-Babble to save lives.
> >
> > Okay. What is wrong here?
> >
> > The only person I see potentially arousing feelings of antisemitism here is you. Do you understand why?
> >
> > The boy who cried wolf over and over again when none existed eventually led people to hold him in low regard and no longer responded to his false warnings. When a real wolf finally appeared, the boy's cries remained ignored and unanswered. The boy was killed and devoured by the wolf.
> >
> > We should remain vigilant against prejudice and hate.
> >
> > Have you been the subject of prejudice and hate here on Psycho-Babble? You certainly have been the subject of anger and ridicule. I have not seen prejudice. I see no hate being directed at you as the result of antisemitism. Do you? Can you document incidents of antisemitism directed at you here on Psycho-Babble? I would like to evaluate an original post for myself. Your replies obfuscate the poster's original verbiage.
> >
> > I no longer consider your complaints regarding a post made many years ago to be relevant. It is unlikely that anyone would ever see it were it not for your efforts to repost it. If that one post is the only one that you feel is motivated by antisemitism, then I consider this to be an indicator of its absence.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Friends,
> It is written here,[...you do indeed have concerns regarding the biblical passage..].
> These concerns are important because the prohibitions to me posted by Mr Hsiung prevent me from posting what I need to so that IMHO lives could be saved, life-ruining conditions and addictions could be prevented, and those in the bondage of depression and/or addiction could be delivered out from the shackles of them into a new life free from the darkness of depression and into a marvelous light of peace and joy. This could come from Jewish perspective that has been revealed to me and the prohibitions to me by Mr. Hsiung prevent me from posting such.
> So it is not to me as to if anyone here does not think that the statements in question do not put down Jews, for they say what they say regardless if some posters here say they don't.
> The statement in question in discussion is not the one Scott cites here. The statement in discussion is that there is a list of the top ten worst reasons for organized religion and one of those says:
> [...to have their agenda not centered in Christ...].
> That statement can be seen as conducive to the civic harmony and welfare of the community and supportive This is because Mr Hsiung states that one match could start a forest fire so he then does not wait to put it out and that support takes precedence and that he does what in his thinking will be good for this community as a whole. So what can be seen is what it is. It says what it says. That statement could be thought by Jews and Islamic people and all other people of religions that have their agenda not centered in Christ to be an insult to their faith for it could be thought that their faith is in the category of the "worst".
> The question then becomes as to if the statement is an anti-Semitic statement, at least. The rule is that an anti-Semitic statement is one that puts down Jews. This is not determined by any member here or even Mr Hsiung himself. It is determined by what the generally accepted meaning of {put down} means. Like in elementary terms, "my bike is better than your bike" or going further, {people of my faith go to heaven and people of your faith do not}. In the latter, it took me years to have Mr Hsiung agree with me concerning a statement of that nature and reversed his thinking about the concerned statement. And I do not see anything different in the statements in discussion here as to if they put down Jews, at least. I am offering Mr Hsiung the opportunity to examine again the statements in question that I want to be purged. If he rejects that opportunity, then I have done what I could do and what I have to do.
> Lou> Scott,
You wrote about my concern that Jews
> COULD be put down.
In considering all the statements in question that I think could arouse anti-Semitic feelings, there is the danger that not only myself could be put down, but that Jews could be put down.
Here are two statements that I am awaiting for Mr Hsiung to reply to in our discussion here.
This one, states that the {only} religion that...
The generally accepted meaning of put down applies here and is agreed by Mr Hsiung to do so. Yet today, it remains as can be considered to be conducive to the civic harmony and welfare of this community an is supportive and will be good for this community as a whole. Let us look at this statement to determine if you think that it is an anti-Semitic statement on the grounds that it puts down, at least, Jews. The statement is in line number 6. The words are {the only} that are in question.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20080404/msgs/832720.html
Now here is another. In this case Jews are depicted in a manner that IMHO could lead a Jew to feel put down when they read it or that the generally accepted meaning of {put down} comes into play. The put down against Jews is plainly visible. Let us look at this.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/996847.html
Now you want to examine some of these yourself to make your own determiation as to if Jews are put down in the posts. I think they are in the two above posts and if you do not, I would like for you to state your rationale for such.
Lou
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 8:25:47
In reply to Lou's request to Scott-muneecheynjurz, posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 6:45:03
I am acutely aware of this exchange, as I read the thread as it unfolded. I have always known that this post is the one you most often allude to in your petitions to administration.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20080404/msgs/832720.html
"What is Christianity? The only religion that offers a pathway for you to return back to God. Now if you don't believe we came from God in the first place, this isn't going to mean much to you."
In my estimation, the author of the above passage was probably more interested in saving you than in killing you. I do not see anti-semitism. I see pro-christianity. I refuse to get into a discussion here of how Western religions have used words to facilitate genocide.
How would you feel if the author of the verbiage you find objectionable had said instead, "What is Christianity? I believe it is the only religion that offers a pathway for you to return back to God."?
Would the words "I believe" have made this a civil statement?
Personally, I would have preferred that the post be rephrased to include "I believe", as this would have been more adherent to the posting preferences for the Faith forum as described by the administrator of this website. It wasn't. The original wording is not at all antisemitic. How an antisemite might use them is.
Remember. Circumcision...
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 8:45:25
In reply to I believe. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 8:25:47
> I am acutely aware of this exchange, as I read the thread as it unfolded. I have always known that this post is the one you most often allude to in your petitions to administration.
>
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20080404/msgs/832720.html
>
> "What is Christianity? The only religion that offers a pathway for you to return back to God. Now if you don't believe we came from God in the first place, this isn't going to mean much to you."
>
> In my estimation, the author of the above passage was probably more interested in saving you than in killing you. I do not see anti-semitism. I see pro-christianity. I refuse to get into a discussion here of how Western religions have used words to facilitate genocide.
>
> How would you feel if the author of the verbiage you find objectionable had said instead, "What is Christianity? I believe it is the only religion that offers a pathway for you to return back to God."?
>
> Would the words "I believe" have made this a civil statement?
>
> Personally, I would have preferred that the post be rephrased to include "I believe", as this would have been more adherent to the posting preferences for the Faith forum as described by the administrator of this website. It wasn't. The original wording is not at all antisemitic. How an antisemite might use them is.
>
> Remember. Circumcision...
>
>
> - Scott> Scott,
The rule here is to not put down those of other faiths. The rule is explained that when the use of an imperative is used, like {only}, then the imperative precludes all those that are not in the {only}. So readers see what is what it is. It says what it says. The statement means that Jews, Islamic people , Hindus and all those of other religions that are not in Christiandom, are not on the pathway that returns one to God.
The statement could be interpreted as an insult to Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and the rest that are not in the {only}. This could arouse anti-Semitic feelings because it can be seen as conducive to the civic harmony and welfare of this community as well as supportive and will be good for this community as a whole. I do not think that having Jews and others depicted as such here as being good at all. But by the nature that it stands, readers could think that Judaism is a lesser religion that Christianity, which fits the generally accepted meaning of being put down.
So here we have a statement that puts down Jews, at least, which is agreed to be an anti-Semitic statement and it is allowed to stand.
Lou
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 8:58:31
In reply to Lou's reply-ahntiepsemalowdtupstan » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 8:45:25
The ancient post you cite wasn't a put down of other faiths so much as it was a holding up of the one faith that the poster sincerely believed in. Are you any different, Lou? Why would you need to explain your beliefs regarding mental illness and drug usage using a Jewish perspective? Isn't that a put down of all other religions? Is Christianity inferior to Judiasm?
See how this works?
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 9:23:52
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-ahntiepsemalowdtupstan » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 8:58:31
> The ancient post you cite wasn't a put down of other faiths so much as it was a holding up of the one faith that the poster sincerely believed in. Are you any different, Lou? Why would you need to explain your beliefs regarding mental illness and drug usage using a Jewish perspective? Isn't that a put down of all other religions? Is Christianity inferior to Judiasm?
>
> See how this works?
>
>
> - ScottScott,
I am prohibited by the rules of Mr Hsiung from posting what is in [ admin,7968 ]. I am abiding by that prohibition to me here, so I do not post it or anything that could be analogous to it. There is a prohibition also that states not to post what could put down those of other faiths, so I do not post what could do that. If I do post from a Jewish perspective here, I honor the prohibitions to me by Mr Hsiung and do not post what could put down those of other faiths. What is happening here is that the posts that could put down those of other faiths that could include Judaism are the ones that I am objecting to being allowed to stand.
The rule here is not to allow statements that could put down those of other faiths even if one believes them. The rule is to not post what is not supportive because support takes precedence. Precedence over belief, precedence even if it is in the Bible, precedence even if one thinks it is true. I am abiding by that rule and I think that Mr Hsiung has a duty to stop others that do not abide by that rule, for by allowing posts that put down Jews, at least, could IMHO induce hostile opinions and feelings against Jews because readers could think that anti-Semitic statements are supportive here. And readers could think that if anti-Semitic statements are supportive by a psychiatrist that chairs this forum, they could also think that anti-Semitic statements could be supportive in the community that they are in. This IMHO could lead to Jews becoming victims of anti-Semitic violence.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2013, at 13:28:48
In reply to Crying antisemitism where none exists. Disharmony » Dinah, posted by SLS on October 14, 2013, at 8:58:33
> I believe it is a stereotype that Jews constantly cry antisemitism where none exists.
I hadn't been aware of that stereotype, and Lou is actually the only one I'm aware of doing it.
But then I've always understood that well less than a hundred years ago, something so monstrous happened that it would be perfectly normal and understandable to feel defensive. I haven't noticed any excess concern elsewhere.
I'm still rather bitter about the extermination order signed against Mormons, and my great-greats being chased out of wherever they were, and my grandparents being delegitamized when Utah joined the United States. And what Mormons suffered was so much less, and longer ago.
I sincerely hope that this is a more reasonable time. Yet even so, I never came so near to returning to the Mormon church than during the campaign of Mitt Romney and all the disrespectful jokes about magic underwear. And I always speak up in church when I hear anything insensitive about Judaism. In fact, I'm looking into the Noahide covenant and am rather excited about it.
So I very much understand being sensitive to anti-semetism. But I can't think it's conducive to positive feelings towards Jews to be constantly accused of hating them. Lou may only be one person, but his accusations take up a fair amount of space on Babble and are hard to ignore.
That quite apart from the fact that Dr. Bob doesn't remove posts, and has a policy against sanctioning posts that are archived.
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 17:56:43
In reply to Re: Crying antisemitism where none exists. Disharmony » SLS, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2013, at 13:28:48
> I hadn't been aware of that stereotype,
Yup.
https://www.google.com/#q=antisemitism+cry+wolf
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 19:01:39
In reply to Re: Crying antisemitism where none exists. Disharmony » SLS, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2013, at 13:28:48
> That quite apart from the fact that Dr. Bob doesn't remove posts, and has a policy against sanctioning posts that are archived.
What do you think, Lou? Game over?
You win some, you lose some. It doesn't matter how many times you may ask for it to be sanctioned, the post you object to will stand. You lose. Of course, the moderator may change his posting policies such that you win. In any event, I think it is time to move on. I can't think of anything else that I would wish to say.
Antisemitism is hideous, and has, throughout history, led to the deaths of Jews. It is good that you are vigilant in protecting Jews from antisemitism. I would suggest that you perhaps evaluate your current strategies and consider trying something different.
Out of all the thousands of posts that are extant and archived on Psycho-Babble that you can parse in your surveillance for antisemitic content, you could only find one for consideration?
One?
I believe that I have demonstrated that a reasonable person (or forum) could read the post you cite and not see antisemitism.
I see that you have now returned to posting on the Medication board. I will be interested to discover what, if any, uncivil posts you are cited for by the moderator of this forum. I think that we could all use a review of posting rules, particularly those that involve exaggerations, overgeneralizations, accusations, and other verbiage that had, in the past, been judged to be uncivil by the moderator.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on October 15, 2013, at 19:01:50
In reply to Re: Crying antisemitism where none exists. Disharmony » Dinah, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 17:56:43
From all the compliments I get on my Trek yellow bike I do think it's better than anyone else's but I am willing to look at yours. As many bikes are nice and who knows one could be better than mine. But it's okay. I can accept this. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 20:37:49
In reply to Re: Crying antisemitism where none exists. Disharmony » SLS, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2013, at 13:28:48
> > I believe it is a stereotype that Jews constantly cry antisemitism where none exists.
>
> I hadn't been aware of that stereotype, and Lou is actually the only one I'm aware of doing it.
>
> But then I've always understood that well less than a hundred years ago, something so monstrous happened that it would be perfectly normal and understandable to feel defensive. I haven't noticed any excess concern elsewhere.
>
> I'm still rather bitter about the extermination order signed against Mormons, and my great-greats being chased out of wherever they were, and my grandparents being delegitamized when Utah joined the United States. And what Mormons suffered was so much less, and longer ago.
>
> I sincerely hope that this is a more reasonable time. Yet even so, I never came so near to returning to the Mormon church than during the campaign of Mitt Romney and all the disrespectful jokes about magic underwear. And I always speak up in church when I hear anything insensitive about Judaism. In fact, I'm looking into the Noahide covenant and am rather excited about it.
>
> So I very much understand being sensitive to anti-semetism. But I can't think it's conducive to positive feelings towards Jews to be constantly accused of hating them. Lou may only be one person, but his accusations take up a fair amount of space on Babble and are hard to ignore.
>
> That quite apart from the fact that Dr. Bob doesn't remove posts, and has a policy against sanctioning posts that are archived.Friends,
It is written here,[...the fact that (Mr. Hsiung)...has a policy against sanctioning posts that are archived...]
Let us look at this post where Mr. Hsiung reversed himself and agreed with me. There was that post as follows that was posted in that thread in the archives. Any statement by Mr. Hsiung to allow readers to see that what is in question is against the rules here is all I ask from him. So Mr . Hsiung does not have a policy that he will not revisit a post in the archives at all. In fact, there was one by {fuzzymind} that I remember where Mr Hsiung actually posted a sanction many days after it was first posted.
Lou
[ admin, 1050578 ]
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 21:15:51
In reply to Lou Pilder: Game over?, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 19:01:39
> > That quite apart from the fact that Dr. Bob doesn't remove posts, and has a policy against sanctioning posts that are archived.
>
> What do you think, Lou? Game over?
>
> You win some, you lose some. It doesn't matter how many times you may ask for it to be sanctioned, the post you object to will stand. You lose. Of course, the moderator may change his posting policies such that you win. In any event, I think it is time to move on. I can't think of anything else that I would wish to say.
>
> Antisemitism is hideous, and has, throughout history, led to the deaths of Jews. It is good that you are vigilant in protecting Jews from antisemitism. I would suggest that you perhaps evaluate your current strategies and consider trying something different.
>
> Out of all the thousands of posts that are extant and archived on Psycho-Babble that you can parse in your surveillance for antisemitic content, you could only find one for consideration?
>
> One?
>
> I believe that I have demonstrated that a reasonable person (or forum) could read the post you cite and not see antisemitism.
>
> I see that you have now returned to posting on the Medication board. I will be interested to discover what, if any, uncivil posts you are cited for by the moderator of this forum. I think that we could all use a review of posting rules, particularly those that involve exaggerations, overgeneralizations, accusations, and other verbiage that had, in the past, been judged to be uncivil by the moderator.
>
>
> - Scott
> Scott,
You said that there was only one post that was anti-Semitic. Which one was that?
Lou
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 22:00:49
In reply to Lou's request-rvrihneegip » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on October 15, 2013, at 21:15:51
> You said that there was only one post that was anti-Semitic. Which one was that?
Nice try.
This is what I said:
"Out of all the thousands of posts that are extant and archived on Psycho-Babble that you can parse in your surveillance for antisemitic content, you could only find one for consideration?"
Since you are so focused on the historical record and the forum archives, you might want to finally reflect on the words of others before repeating arguments on an issue that has already been resolved.
Turn out the lights, the party's over.
You have nowhere left to go.
I know you need something as a replacement project now that we have resolved your issue with a post describing Christianity. You might want to read or reread a book on organic chemistry and focus first on the chemistry of benzene and aromatic benzene rings. I think you can afford to be better informed in this area before opining on the safety of drugs.
- Scott
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