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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 87 to 111 of 158. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2009, at 19:50:25
In reply to Re: Lou's request-ru?, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2009, at 19:42:29
See the thing is that my third post wasn't an attack. To say that it 'resembles' an attack isn't any better (or never has been on Babble) than saying that someone posted something that was attacking.
It never has been civil to say that a post is attacking.
Whether posts are attacking or not is for Bob and the deputies to decide - not for you to decide.
If you decide that something is I suppose you can use the 'report this post feature' but you aren't supposed to say that it is attacking.
How come? WHy, because that would be jumping to conclusions.
What is particularly hurtful to me about this is that I didn't intend for my post to be attacking - I intended it to be a report of my experience here similarly to how Greywolf's initial post here was a report of theirs. When I say to the best of my ability that I really didn't intend for it to be attacking you disregard what I say thinking that what? You know my intention better than I do myself?
What am I supposed to be apologizing for Scott? The fact that you interpret my post to be an attack even though I certainly didn't intend for that and others seem capable of reading it charitably such that it isn't an attack?
How is your saying that my post is an attack not an attack in itself?
I worried about my post with respect to Greywolf. Not to you. Trust me, the world doesn't need more heroes looking out for the welfare of others (making things worse in the process).
Once upon a time (when I trusted Bob's judgement) I'd have been happy enough with people deciding to use the 'report this post' feature. Now I'm much happier if things can be sorted out on board. What more can I do but clarify my intention? I do feel some responsibility to clarify my intention with Greywolf - but really... How is that any of your business? You are responsible for you. Or... Not. We shall see...
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2009, at 20:10:44
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on June 6, 2009, at 5:18:52
> I have been confused about this whole affair as it related to my act, including what I thought were civil and carefully chosen words.Saying that what someone says 'resembles' an attack has for a long time here been viewed by admin to be no different from saying that what someone says 'was' an attack. Neither have been considered acceptable here for quite some time.
> A few years ago, it was your wish to have us work out our differences with what was tantamount to policing ourselves for infractions of civility without the immediate intervention of deputies.
Sure. I think that we are still encouraged to do so. Thing is that we are supposed to do this *without* accusing or jumping to conclusions about the intentions or motivations of others. It doesn't matter whether what someone said was an attack or not it has never been considered acceptable to say that it was an attack. Saying that a post is or resembles an attack isn't supposed to be our call to make - that is for the deputies to decide.
Maybe you need to figure out what is important to you. Is Greywolf feeling upset about my post your main concern? If that is the case then why not accept what I've said already to Greywolf in my attempt for them not to feel upset in response to my post? Seems to me that the biggest upset in response to it is yours. Because you won't accept what I've said about my post. You still think that it is in fact unacceptable (thats why you would report it, I suppose) despite what I've said in attempting to clarify my intention. I still fail to see what is uncivil about me posting my experience in response to another posters posting theirs.
> "I thank you for describing specific instances when the moderation of this website has hurt people. It is very helpful to refine one's perspective on the posting policies here."
Then... What problem are you having with my post again?
I've said to you that I felt very hurt in response to your saying that my post 'resembled an attack'. You don't seem to give a sh*t about my hurt. That hurts. You don't care. I don't belong here. Thats okay. Whatever. It is just oh so ironic that you can post in 'support' of the rules here when you don't even seem to have a clear understanding of what they are...
But then consistency blah. If this site still aimed to be consistent you would have been blocked with Bob's last post. For declining to rephrase when he requested that you do so.
Whatever.
Good luck you you all.
Posted by zenhussy on June 7, 2009, at 21:11:38
In reply to Re: Lou's request-ru?, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2009, at 16:43:56
>>>What are you going to do with SLS? Is .... or is it that he gets a by. why? <<<
here are two blast from the past answers from the almighty Bob regarding similar situations:
"sorry, sometimes things slip through"
followed by
"In cases like this, I think it's usually better overall just to let it be..."
here's hoping you receive respectful and empathetic responses from the Bob and the Hsiung....
wish it weren't so ak. sure wish you never understood where we came from. so sorry you now do.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2009, at 21:25:32
In reply to five years ago this was the standard response... » alexandra_k, posted by zenhussy on June 7, 2009, at 21:11:38
tis okay. i don't like to see people blocked. especially when they don't understand and when they are generally speaking wonderful contributers and would be missed by so many.
but yeah, things are hard to take sometimes...
took me a while to come to understand, yeah. it is a hard thing. one doesn't want to understand. mostly because... one can't face things really being that way. they just can't be. they just can't.
oh... but they are.
:-(
(((zen)))
Posted by SLS on June 8, 2009, at 5:19:31
In reply to five years ago this was the standard response... » alexandra_k, posted by zenhussy on June 7, 2009, at 21:11:38
> >>>What are you going to do with SLS? Is .... or is it that he gets a by. why? <<<
>
> here are two blast from the past answers from the almighty Bob regarding similar situations:
>
> "sorry, sometimes things slip through"
>
> followed by
>
> "In cases like this, I think it's usually better overall just to let it be..."
>
> here's hoping you receive respectful and empathetic responses from the Bob and the Hsiung....
>
> wish it weren't so ak. sure wish you never understood where we came from. so sorry you now do.Do you think Dr. Bob has been lenient with me along this thread and not lenient with Alexandra?
- Scott
Posted by verne on June 8, 2009, at 8:15:14
In reply to Re: Case closed? » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on June 6, 2009, at 9:33:19
Twinleaf,
I sympathize and agree with you. Especially, when you say, "I was given a three-month block because the poster who had found a way to cause harm while staying within the ciivility guidelines might happen to read my post AND FEEL HURT HERSELF!"
This happens all the time. I've been guilty of it myself.
It doesn't help that another poster "assumes" you are talking about them and thereby ACCUSES you all over again.
Verne
Posted by verne on June 8, 2009, at 8:31:05
In reply to Re: Lou's request-ru?, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2009, at 16:43:56
Alex, you're no troll. You make excellent points.
I haven't read the whole thread but agree that calling a post an attack is an attack in itself and calling the post that calls a post an attack, an attack, is yet another attack.
The conversation then becomes a self-propelled, infinite, accusation exchange.
You get that and tried to interrupt the cycle - to stop the runaway train.
Verne
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2009, at 8:43:06
In reply to Infinite Accusations, posted by verne on June 8, 2009, at 8:31:05
> The conversation then becomes a self-propelled, infinite, accusation exchange.
yes
> You get that and tried to interrupt the cycle - to stop the runaway train.yes. and i failed. and when you see yourself failing its just much more fun to call everyone a bunch of wankers and be done with it, don't you think?
sigh.
i used to have patience.
back in the good old days when i had faith in admin.
no faith anymore.
i'm basically considered a troll anyway so why not just live up to that and let others reputations remain intact.what the f*ck would i know about civility given my track record?
why fight the inevitable?
Posted by SLS on June 8, 2009, at 13:20:33
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by greywolf on June 5, 2009, at 0:04:28
> > I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/11/09
> >
> > * Me too. It seems to work. (nm) » greywolf SLS 5/12/09
> > * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> > * Re: I love this place despite the rules » alexandra_k SLS 5/14/09
> > * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> > * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> > * Some love this place despite the rules » SLS gobbledygook 5/14/09
> > * Re: I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/14/09
> > * Thanks, Scott (nm) greywolf 5/14/09
> >
> >
> > Ok. I didn't want to have to go with this. It is truly a no-brainer, but I just wish someone else had taken note of it:
> >
> > Just what in the hell do you think Greywolf was thanking me for?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> >
>
> I thanked Scott because I did, indeed, feel attacked, albeit in a sarcastic way, by Alexandra K's post. Was I upset? No, because it was clear that Alexandra has issues with rules enforcement that I either don't have or haven't had to deal with personally.
>
> I just wish that my expression of positive feelings for PB hadn't been turned into a controversy when all I intended was a personal statement of appreciation. I was somewhat taken aback by Alexandra's response to me, but it is a public forum and she's entitled to express her opinion. I'll leave judgment of the manner of expression to others.
>
> GreywolfSorry folks, but I have become bored with this thread and have decided to leave it to the rest of you to see where it goes.
- Scott
Posted by fayeroe on June 8, 2009, at 14:06:03
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by Dr. Bob on June 6, 2009, at 4:27:09
Here's an opportunity for everyone to rethink what's been said. Sometimes clarifying intentions or apologizing may be in keeping with what this site is supposed to be: a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.
Bob
A group learns from their leader.....In this case I would ask you if you consistently apologize to posters when they are hurt by administration's actions?
I am not referring to anyone in this thread. I'm talking about the big picture.
Posted by greywolf on June 8, 2009, at 14:46:26
In reply to Re: Case closed? » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on June 8, 2009, at 14:06:03
Scott:
Tried to send you a Babblemail but without success.
Greywolf
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2009, at 16:12:16
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by SLS on June 8, 2009, at 13:20:33
> Sorry folks, but I have become bored with this thread and have decided to leave it to the rest of you to see where it goes.
Bored. That is an interesting way to feel after I repeatedly say to you that I felt very hurt that you said my post 'resembled an attack'. In response to that you feel... Bored. Is that a pulling the wings off flies kind of bored do you suppose?I can tell you precisely where this thread is going: Nowhere.
Or: I'll get a blocking. For calling y'all a bunch of wankers and not leaving things be.
Ironically enough the point of blockings was to prevent things escalating to this point. Perhaps there wouldn't need to be a blocking if Bob was actually direct about whatever the f*ck he was trying to say.
Bored...
Well done indeed.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2009, at 16:13:44
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2009, at 16:12:16
Sorry my hurt bores you Scott.
Please don't post to me again.
Posted by SLS on June 10, 2009, at 19:56:43
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on June 6, 2009, at 5:18:52
Dr. Bob
For the sake of clarity, and to amplify your position on the matter, I feel that it would be desirable for you to comment on the following passage:
> Here's the thing:
>
> I have been confused about this whole affair as it related to my act, including what I thought were civil and carefully chosen words. This represents an opportunity for you to explain explicitly what you want from us. A few years ago, it was your wish to have us work out our differences with what was tantamount to policing ourselves for infractions of civility without the immediate intervention of deputies. I do hope this jars your memory. I thought I was performing in that role. I do regret taking on this role if my memory fails me, and I don't know what else to say but to I apologize in shame, in which case I also owe an apology to Alexandra.From: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090529/msgs/899654.html
I would prefer to receive a PBC with an explanation rather than to be coaxed into giving an apology. I simply need to know what kind of interaction in this case would be a failure of following site guidelines
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 10, 2009, at 20:34:18
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » SLS, posted by Dr. Bob on June 6, 2009, at 4:26:58
Posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 11:20:42
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by Dr. Bob on June 6, 2009, at 4:27:09
~~~~ Bob
A group learns from their leader.....In this case I would ask you if you consistently apologize to posters when they are hurt by administration's actions?
I am not referring to anyone in this thread. I'm talking about the big picture. ~~~~
"Here's an opportunity for everyone to rethink what's been said. Sometimes clarifying intentions or apologizing may be in keeping with what this site is supposed to be:
~~~~a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.~~~
Bob
Wow! The last paragraph by Bob sure sounds good...I would if administration could swear that is their M.O. in dealing with the persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses?
Posted by twinleaf on June 11, 2009, at 14:35:36
In reply to Apologies, Bob?, posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 11:20:42
That quote which you like was written by me - June 2, above...
twinleaf
Posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 16:15:25
In reply to Apologies, Bob?, posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 11:20:42
Posted by fayeroe on June 12, 2009, at 13:47:01
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by Dr. Bob on June 6, 2009, at 4:27:09
Bob said : Hi, everyone,
Two new ~cases~ are open:....
Court talk? Prison talk? Are we on trial? Going to get a case written up? That leads to segregation from the general population for 14 days. Could be the result of a fight, having contraband, inappropriate sexual remarks, inappropriate sexual activities, stealing, passing "kits", (notes) gambling, trafficking and trading. And it goes on and on.
Maximum segregation is 14 days. Sounds appropriate here since we never have any contraband and we haven't been trafficking and trading, etc. ....(I'll trade you some stamps for a little fun on the side)Pat
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2009, at 15:08:22
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by fayeroe on June 12, 2009, at 13:47:01
> Bob said : Hi, everyone,
>
> Two new ~cases~ are open:....
>
> Court talk? Prison talk? Are we on trial? Going to get a case written up? That leads to segregation from the general population for 14 days. Could be the result of a fight, having contraband, inappropriate sexual remarks, inappropriate sexual activities, stealing, passing "kits", (notes) gambling, trafficking and trading. And it goes on and on.
> Maximum segregation is 14 days. Sounds appropriate here since we never have any contraband and we haven't been trafficking and trading, etc. ....(I'll trade you some stamps for a little fun on the side)
>
> PatPat,
You wrote,[...trade you some stamps...]
What kind of stamps do you have?
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on June 12, 2009, at 15:10:41
In reply to Apologies, Bob?, posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 11:20:42
>> a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.~~~
>> Bob
> Wow! The last paragraph by Bob sure sounds good...I would if administration could swear that is their M.O. in dealing with the persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses?
He must have thought that you made an environment where people could recover from 'emotional illnesses' by blocking people who said things that might have made other people feel put down. I wouldn't hold it against him. When have humans in groups done anything nice and good? OK, sometimes, but not often.
Posted by fayeroe on June 12, 2009, at 15:17:56
In reply to Lou's request-mrpoastman » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2009, at 15:08:22
> > Bob said : Hi, everyone,
> >
> > Two new ~cases~ are open:....
> >
> > Court talk? Prison talk? Are we on trial? Going to get a case written up? That leads to segregation from the general population for 14 days. Could be the result of a fight, having contraband, inappropriate sexual remarks, inappropriate sexual activities, stealing, passing "kits", (notes) gambling, trafficking and trading. And it goes on and on.
> > Maximum segregation is 14 days. Sounds appropriate here since we never have any contraband and we haven't been trafficking and trading, etc. ....(I'll trade you some stamps for a little fun on the side)
> >
> > Pat
>
> Pat,
> You wrote,[...trade you some stamps...]
> What kind of stamps do you have?
> Lou
>
>Lou, "trading stamps" is an example of what an offender can do to get in trouble in prison. Stamps are very high in value and can bring as much as $5 each inside.
I caught an offender trading a stamp for three pencils one day. I had to write a "case" on her.
I have Alhzeimer stamps right now. But I need them for mail.......:-)
Posted by fayeroe on June 12, 2009, at 15:20:59
In reply to Re: Apologies, Bob? » fayeroe, posted by Sigismund on June 12, 2009, at 15:10:41
> >> a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.~~~
>
> >> Bob
>
> > Wow! The last paragraph by Bob sure sounds good...I would if administration could swear that is their M.O. in dealing with the persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses?
>
> He must have thought that you made an environment where people could recover from 'emotional illnesses' by blocking people who said things that might have made other people feel put down. I wouldn't hold it against him. When have humans in groups done anything nice and good? OK, sometimes, but not often.I have to give credit to Twinleaf for the paragraph that I thought Bob had written. I'm a bit dense these days....
However, it would be nice if Bob believed what Twinleaf said.....And I still believe with all my heart that Bob owes dozens of people here apologies for the hurt he has caused.
Anyway, you're cooking with gas today!!! P
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 4:26:32
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on June 6, 2009, at 5:18:52
> I have been confused about this whole affair as it related to my act, including what I thought were civil and carefully chosen words. ... A few years ago, it was your wish to have us work out our differences with what was tantamount to policing ourselves for infractions of civility without the immediate intervention of deputies. ... I thought I was performing in that role.
That's still my wish, but as Kath said, it can be tricky, and it's safer to use the notification button. The downside is, that doesn't help other posters avoid blocks.
Thank you for trying to help others work out their differences. I don't doubt that you chose your words carefully. Still, I consider it possible for them to have led alex to feel accused, and I ask that you not post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks, and sorry about taking so long to follow up,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 4:30:49
In reply to Re: Apologies, Bob? » fayeroe, posted by Sigismund on June 12, 2009, at 15:10:41
> I think that it is really hard to do this type of thing. There's the HUGE potential that in saying something to a fellow-poster, we'll inadvertently upset, insult, hurt them!!! It's not always easy to say clearly what we mean, I think.
>
> For me, I think it will feel MUCH safer to use the "Notify Admin" option, rather than take a chance of saying the 'wrong' thing & taking the lid off a veritable beehive, ending up with a lot of VERY **ssed-off & upset bees!!! & possibly getting stung myself!
>
> KathI agree, it can be very tricky, and it's safer to use the notification button. As I mentioned to Scott, the downside is that it doesn't help other posters avoid blocks.
--
> A group learns from their leader.....In this case I would ask you if you consistently apologize to posters when they are hurt by administration's actions?
>
> I am not referring to anyone in this thread. I'm talking about the big picture.
>
> > a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.~~~
>
> Wow! The last paragraph ... sure sounds good...I would if administration could swear that is their M.O. in dealing with the persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses?
>
> fayeroeGroup members sometimes learn from their leader. Yes, I consistently apologize to posters who may be hurt by my actions. I have the last dozen times, anyway.
Still, as I mentioned to twinleaf, the role of the administrators here isn't to be supportive, at least not directly. But I can understand the wish to be supported by us.
--
> He must have thought that you made an environment where people could recover from 'emotional illnesses' by blocking people who said things that might have made other people feel put down.
>
> SigismundI do think it might help people with emotional illnesses to have an environment where they don't feel put down...
Bob
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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