![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 38 to 62 of 164. Go back in thread:
Posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
I have to agree with seldomseen here. He/she (? sorry) made good and relevant points about this whole situation.
No offense at all, but you guys are getting a little carried away. Calm down. It's reasonable to ask questions-- i'm curious about some of the details too-- but you folks are being far too critical.
1) Use of this site is entirely voluntary (and public), and, as someone else mentioned, we have no personal ownership over this site (i.e., this site is not *yours*).
2) You haven't even waited to see how this will play out or affect things differently. At least wait until some of these potential worst-case scenario fears potentially played out before complaining about them!
3) It's the same day as Dr. Bob's original post. You haven't even waited to give him a chance to try to respond to your questions, not that I think he really has any obligation to anyway.
4) (What Lou Pilder and seldom seen said.)It seems to me we're kind of acting like a kid who asked their parent to buy them a toy and then getting mad at our parent when it isn't exactly like we hoped and thought it would be.
I apologize if this was not civil enough. I don't mean to offend anyone. I do feel a bit frustrated though when people are precipitously critical (not that I am immune to this weakness either, of course).
> Dr bob was quite clear in his post that we are not the subjects of this research project.
>
> No one is experimenting on us. That's why consent is not required.
>
> Like everyone, I don't know the particulars of the study, but it seems to me that babble is just a part of the *place* that the research is conducted. We just happen to be in this place.
>
> We have been here for a long time telling our stories to strangers, I don't see how participants in a research study being here should change that.
>
> I mean what if the participants in the research program receive direct benefit from babble? I know I have and am glad to hopefully extend that benefit to the actual subjects.
>
> Seldom.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
Hello, maybe this has already been asked, but can you please post or answer my post as to when this study begins? As in what actual day, and for how long it will last? When new posters arrive on board? I'm new (week?) and don't want anyone thinking I'm posing as part of your study. I've made a couple of supportive friends and would like not to lose them. No offense intended.
Thanks~Jade
Posted by Deneb on November 8, 2008, at 20:03:14
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » seldomseen, posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
I hope we are just getting carried away. Maybe Dr. Bob wouldn't bring in people that would probably hurt us?
I know I'm probably getting carried away, not thinking straight.
At PsychCentral, tons of people join up everyday and it's not scary or anything.
It's different there though. I mostly lurk or chat. It's too big there.
I hope it's going to be OK.
Posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 20:04:43
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » seldomseen, posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
It would be more helpful to me if you stated why you don't have a problem with the research. It's understandable that many here would have questions.
I don't agree that Bob has no obligation- or at least that he shouldn't respond at all-- to the questions. I think it would at least be respectful; plus it's a bit unsettling to have a lot of new posters-- if that is going to be the case--. Perhaps none of our concerns will be borne out, but it's better for people to express them, if they have them, than not to-- and feel less jittery about who new people are, about responses and subjects, etc-- and , in addition, that some secret activites are being carried out, which they don't know about.
I've noticed in that past that some people suspect that Bob is doing research, and seem uncomfortable or upset with that thought-- so I'm concerned that the research will negatively them-- and possibly others. That's one among several concerns I have.If Bob can help people feel more secure and safe about the whole subject-- then this will have accomplished a great deal.
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2008, at 20:39:21
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » Questionmark, posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 20:04:43
I feel that one thing we can all do to avoid over reacting is not to change our names. That way we know who is really already part of the community. I'm also wondering about fake illnesses? I too have met some wonderful people here lately and do trust them completely just to reassure some who may be reading. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 20:56:18
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
I certainly hope that any support you've found here will remain, and that posters won't treat our fellow posters any differently, whatever we might feel about the administration of the site.
I personally am going to assume that any new posters will be no more likely to be insincere about what they post than what would generally be possible on any anonymous internet forum.
I'm glad you found us, and I hope you find the same warm welcome you've already found.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 22:19:33
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
> Hello, maybe this has already been asked, but can you please post or answer my post as to when this study begins? As in what actual day, and for how long it will last? When new posters arrive on board? I'm new (week?) and don't want anyone thinking I'm posing as part of your study. I've made a couple of supportive friends and would like not to lose them. No offense intended.
>
> Thanks~JadeHello again, thanks for the response, are you not able to give a time frame regarding when, exactly, "participants" will be on boards?
~Jade
Posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:32:29
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by Zeba on November 8, 2008, at 16:37:09
You are absolutely right, Zeba (Ozland-RealMe-I hope I have remembered right!) It would not be difficult for him to give us a brief, accurate statement of what the research project is about, and what the role of the large number of new posters is going to be- undoubtedly, it cannot be the same as ours has been, just as our own roles will be changed. If he did that, posters of long or short duration would feel a bit more respected for what they have contributed and received in these recent years. Everyone could also then make an informed decision as to whether continued participation will contribute to their own continued growth and well-being, or whether it will not.
I am waiting.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:07:47
In reply to Re: Research project DINAH, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 22:19:33
I'm afraid that I'm just a poster, with all the same concerns posters have. I may help out with Administration with regard to civility, but I'm not "Admin" per se. Only Dr. Bob can help you with the questions.
I hope he finds a way to spend time with us, to allay any concerns we express, for the benefit of all.
Posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 0:04:42
In reply to Re: Research project » Zeba, posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:32:29
> It would not be difficult for him to give us a brief, accurate statement of what the research project is about, and what the role of the large number of new posters is going to be- undoubtedly, it cannot be the same as ours has been,
I don't know that I can agree. From Dr Bob's wording -- and I'm with 10der, I think he is very, very careful with every single word -- I'm not sure he can tell us more. He didn't say that *he* was doing research, so it may be someone else's project. He may not have their permission to disclose more.And even if he could tell us more, someone else has already pointed out that disclosing more information would introduce bias into the study, and invalidate the results. Either our behavior would change, or the participants' behavior would change -- either way, the results would lose some of their resonance.
He's said that the people who may come here would be the participants in the study, and I trust Dr Bob not to lie to us. I think if he meant that researchers would be coming here, he's have said that, so I think the people who may come here really are the ones being studied. Since this community exists in a certain form, I can't believe that there is any intent to disrupt the established patterns.
Obviously, I don't post as often as I used to, and I am much more selective in what I say -- after a painful experience left me feeling more than a bit alienated, but that's a different story. Nonetheless, I've been at Babble since 1997, and I do feel connected to it and to many people here. I'm kinda excited by this, and I hope something good comes of it. In fact, I'm kinda excited that there will be new stories on the boards, new names, and maybe more activity.
Who knows? Maybe some of the participants who do show up will decide to stick around and enrich our community? I'd like to think that is a possibility.
Peace.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 1:31:10
In reply to Re: Research project DINAH » JadeKelly, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:07:47
> I'm afraid that I'm just a poster, with all the same concerns posters have. I may help out with Administration with regard to civility, but I'm not "Admin" per se. Only Dr. Bob can help you with the questions.
>
> I hope he finds a way to spend time with us, to allay any concerns we express, for the benefit of all.Dinah, thanks for responding anyway. Maybe we'll find out from Dr. Bob.
~Jade
Posted by Zeba on November 9, 2008, at 2:37:33
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 0:04:42
As someone who has published research, you are to get permission of the subjects. He is saying we are not the subjects, but this is only partially true. I have participated in many studies as an undergraduate student too. One is not so vague and evasive about what one is going to do. I will be contacting the University of Chicago on Monday. I do not take this lightly. In the meantime I will contact Dr. Bob. It may be a good study, but he is going about this in a way that I consider unethical, Check the ethics guidelines for psychiatrists. I will be asking other psychiatrists I know what they think.
Zeba
Posted by Zeba on November 9, 2008, at 2:48:09
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
> Dr bob was quite clear in his post that we are not the subjects of this research project.
>
> No one is experimenting on us. That's why consent is not required.
>
> Like everyone, I don't know the particulars of the study, but it seems to me that babble is just a part of the *place* that the research is conducted. We just happen to be in this place.
>
> We have been here for a long time telling our stories to strangers, I don't see how participants in a research study being here should change that.
>
> I mean what if the participants in the research program receive direct benefit from babble? I know I have and am glad to hopefully extend that benefit to the actual subjects.
>
> Seldom.Indirectly we are subjects. I have not posted in a very long time other than occasionally on the Medication board. I haven't even looked at other boards but was alerted by someone to look on this board.
I am not a guinea pig and don't choose to be. I don't want to be used, and I do not think I am being silly. I don't want this to descend into insults. I hope it won't.Zeba
Posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 5:58:27
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
The only time I ever been in some kind of study (excluding this life as such... emphasising "this life") is one time at the dentist pulling out some teeth. The surgeon asked me "I need your verbal consent to this... there are some med-students here that are just gonna stand by and watch while I perform the procedure.. is that OK with you"... and I said "yes, sure".
As we are on the internet on an open channel (owned by one Dr Bob) it is not required from him that he asks of our consent.. however.. the title "doctor" would imply that he stands on ethical ground and should act like in real world about these matters. As he posted this as a discussion one could assume that he wants some response (and he got it).
Without knowing what the study is about I cannot participate while it is being conducted. The simple answer is that such a thing would deeply affect my way of behaving and thinking in here... and if someone now asks me... "this is an open channel.. if that does not bother you why should this study bother you"... and the simple answer is that an open channel actually bothers me to the point where I take nesseary steps of precaution about some details of myself and my life... and it is not only "oh, better not give away my birthdate".. it can be describinig a situation in my life and changin details in it, for example WHERE it actually was and such things. Further... I do not normally suspect people sitting around and acting... if there are some people out there doing it for some purpose they are in minority... but it does not make me think less about it. We are many times sitting and talking about an industry (the med-industry) that owns part of this world... I take into consideration that they read what is going on in a place like this.. a bit more unlikely they have "agents" running around and making propaganda about their meds... but not unthinkable IMO. They do it in real life (the lobby industry)... so why not on the internet.
Knowing you are in a study , without knowing its intentions, can be very contraproductive IMO. It is for me as one million thoughts about what it actually is about affects my beaviour in it.
Dr Bob should state the purpose with the study and some major details.. if he does so.. I would like to participate IF I found it intersting. Else... I am out of here til the study is over.
Posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:28:17
In reply to Re: Research project » Racer, posted by Zeba on November 9, 2008, at 2:37:33
If I held your concerns, I would first inquire if the study has received IRB approval.
Posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:31:02
In reply to Re: Research project » Zeba, posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:32:29
He did indicate what the role of the posters will be:
"I do want to reassure you that current posters aren't the subjects of this research and that the *research participants will be here for support and education*, not to study the rest of you."
Seldom.
Posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 6:40:40
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:31:02
> He did indicate what the role of the posters will be:
>
> "I do want to reassure you that current posters aren't the subjects of this research and that the *research participants will be here for support and education*, not to study the rest of you."
>
> Seldom.Yes. And this:
>There may be as many as 230 of them, and they may or may not mention that they're in the study.
Then I see no reason why we should not be allowed to know what they are here for... if THEY are the target of the study that makes us some kind "care-takers" (on purpose in a STUDY!)... why should not WE know about its purposes then? It does not make sense.
230 elders learning to use the internet... :) top-secret info! Come one Dr Bob... please clarify so my overactivity drops to sane levels :P
Posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 7:00:49
In reply to Re: Research project » Zeba, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:28:17
> If I held your concerns, I would first inquire if the study has received IRB approval.
Hm... I then make it official:
Has it, Dr Bob?
Posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 7:04:22
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 6:40:40
My contention is that since they are here for support and education, then how are they different from any participant in Babble?
How does our role change at all?
It's like a phlebotomist drawing labs for a clinical study. Do they know the specifics of the study? NO! They just know that someone needs their blood drawn so they do their jobs.
It's just another person.
For us, it's just another person at Babble.
Posted by Extreme on November 9, 2008, at 7:31:41
In reply to My contention. » Extreme, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 7:04:22
> My contention is that since they are here for support and education, then how are they different from any participant in Babble?
>
> How does our role change at all?
>
> It's like a phlebotomist drawing labs for a clinical study. Do they know the specifics of the study? NO! They just know that someone needs their blood drawn so they do their jobs.
>
> It's just another person.
>
> For us, it's just another person at Babble.I have no further comments on this... I just changed my own policy. Please understand, seldomseen.. I am not angry with you or something like that.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 9:00:26
In reply to My contention. » Extreme, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 7:04:22
My guess is that part of the problem is that the participants will know what's going on, while the existing posters won't. There is a potential for existing posters to feel like they do when someone changes their posting name. Like they're entering into a relationship without as much information about that relationship as the other party. That leads to anxiety.
Have you ever heard the expression "You have the advantage over me."? It comes up when one party speaks to another and obviously knows their name and who they are, while the other doesn't. And there is truth behind the conventional phrase.
I think the difference between this and a lab technician is that a lab technician is paid to draw blood samples. That's his job. He assumes his employer tells him what he needs to know to be safe in doing so. We're not being paid to do something relatively routine. We're participating here in forming relationships. (Well, that may be less true on the meds board where people may come to disseminate and receive information.) Certainly anyone who comes here at any time may be less than candid. But this is a contrived situation that puts us, in the sense of that expression, at a disadvantage.
Also, while this is less of a concern for me because everything I know about Dr. Bob shows that Babble is something he does for the benefit of Babblers in terms of support and education, I recognize that there have always been those who are concerned about the involvement of Babble in his presentations and papers. I don't share that underlying concern, but I do respect that it is a reality for many.
People react differently to authority, to secrets, to concerns about many of these issues. People have differing levels of familiarity with research and what it may or may not entail.
I hope that Dr. Bob, and those who aren't anxious about one or all issues involved, are at least respectful of those who do feel anxious and fearful. We aren't foolish or silly. We're just different, with different tolerance for change, secrecy, lack of an even playing field, unilateral actions by authority, etc. We're respectful of other differences on Babble. Hopefully we can be respectful of this one too.
Which is not to negate the responsibility of those of us who are anxious to express those concerns and whatever anger we feel in terms that are respectful of Dr. Bob as well as others. And needless to say to be welcoming and polite to newcomers who may or may not be involved and who may have perfectly innocent reasons for being here and who may be perfectly sincere in all they do.
I always tell my son that what others do is what others do. My actions on babble to other posters will be the same as they always are. And I have every confidence that they should be, that Dr. Bob would not allow anything that would make fools of us or hurt us. But even if I'm wrong, what difference does it make? If someone else behaves dishonorably, that doesn't negate the fact that I behaved with kindness and honor. Not that I'm at all saying that anyone has or would behave dishonorably. It's just a world view. So I'm not going to refuse to post on Babble, and I'm not going to be reserved around newcomers unless and until I discover that reserve would be prudent with any given newcomer. No different than now.
But I do understand, and I empathize. I too dislike being placed in difficult situations. And I expect those who place me in the difficult situation to do what they can to make it less difficult.
Dr. Bob? Please do what you can to make things less difficult for those who have supported Babble and are feeling anxious about the unknown and the known.
Posted by raisinb on November 9, 2008, at 10:10:25
In reply to Re: My contention., posted by Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 9:00:26
As Dinah so eloquently put it, every one of us will have individual reactions, from not being concerned to being extremely upset and anxious. I think it's important for us to respect everyone's reaction.
Whatever the reaction, I can't brainstorm any situation in which current babble members won't indirectly be part of a study, relationship, or research that we were not asked to give informed consent to. If we're at least informed of the dates of the study, we can choose whether we want to continue posting during that period, based on the information we have currently. If we're told more about the scope/purpose of the study and our role in it, that may allay anxiety for many babble members, and they may choose to remain when otherwise they wouldn't.
I'm not usually too worried about how information about me is used. But I'm not overstating the case when I say that what I post on Babble is the most intimate, personal, vulnerable stuff I have. So without knowing more about what's going on, my reaction is to simply opt out of Babble until the whole thing is concluded.
But the point is that none of us really need to justify our own reactions. The parameters of our participation here are going to be changing, perhaps radically, and for many of us, it's natural to react strongly. The point is that any such project needs informed consent--whatever individual reactions are.
Posted by twinleaf on November 9, 2008, at 10:49:19
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:31:02
I think that our roles will inevitably change to some degree. Now, we re all here for the same spectrum of reasons, although with different emphases- some people like the fun and support of Social the best, others need information from Medications, still others find understanding and support on Psychology. We all got here the same way: we found the board ourselves and wanted to be part of it. Because we know this about one another, we can become very trusting and can confide a great deal in one another. I would not be able to feel the same common bond with members of a research study who got here, not because of personal desire, but because it is a requirement of their participation in the study.
We don't know what the study is, but just to imagine one among many possibilities: the participants may be studied to see if the degree of their emotional participation here correlates with the degree of improvement in their personal psychotherapies. Interacting with people who are knowingly being studied is not the same as interacting with self-selected babblers. We are here because we gain something valuable from being here. They will be here because that is a condition of their study participation. It's possible that they will be paid a small amount.
We all know that Dr. Bob's principal professional interest is exploring the roles that the new communication technologies may have in psychotherapy. A valuable spin-off of that interest has been Babble. Up to now, anecdotal material from babblers has undoubtedly been used by Dr Bob in his teaching; we knew this was happening, and no-one minded, as far as I know. But this is different; the nature of Babble itself is being somewhat altered so that it can serve as a study vehicle. I do not want to be part of a study in which I do not even know what is being studied! Those of us who have been here a long time are going to be "inferior citizens" compared to the study members, because they will have know much more than we do.
Posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 11:21:25
In reply to Re: Research project » seldomseen, posted by twinleaf on November 9, 2008, at 10:49:19
>
> They will be here because that is a condition of their study participation.
>
>Those of us who have been here a long time are going to be "inferior citizens" compared to the study members, because they will have know much more than we do.I don't think we have enough information to draw these conclusions. Many of the people on this thread have far more knowledge than I about this sort of research, but just based on the bit that I do know, and based on my experience of Dr Bob's careful use of language, I don't think that we can be sure of anything more than this: some new posters may be participants in a study, and they may or may not tell us if they are.
We don't know that the participants will be told much more than we have -- they're part of a study which in some way involves Babble.
We don't know that participation is a requirement of that study.
As for the question of when the study begins and ends, I have a question to ask about that, too: what if some -- or even all -- of the participants who do participate here find that they receive such valuable support and information here that they choose to remain after the study period ends? Surely we would want to accept them, just as we ourselves were accepted here? Surely we wouldn't want them to feel like second class citizens?
Obviously, we are all having different emotional reactions to this news. Mine just happens to be excitement, rather than fear. I think it's because I do trust Dr Bob, and I believe absolutely that he would not be doing anything he thought would jeopardize this community, or anyone in it. That's been my experience with him so far, and until he violates that trust in some way, I'll continue to believe that.
Peace.
Posted by twinleaf on November 9, 2008, at 12:40:59
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 11:21:25
I guess we will just have to have a friendly disagreement on some of these points.
Unfortunately, we all have a recent example of Bob causing pain to this community. Several posters have pointed out how careful and parsimonious Bob is with his words. This is certainly true, but, to me this is not a source of reassurance. During the extremely painful and stressful rupture which occurred here in March '08, when some long-time members began to attack and hurt others members, Bob was begged for help. He did not respond for several weeks. When he finally did, it was in a two-line reply about some tiny detail. There was never a word about what had happened, nor any guidance or leadership. There was no recognition of the fact that a few people had gotten abused verbally. The reason the crisis resolved was because a number of Babblers worked together to calm things down. While I realize that most of the responsibility was ours, I do think a few calming, thoughtful words from Bob would have helped a lot. A number of people were so badly hurt that they left (some have probably returned with new names). In that instance, I felt that Bob avoided responsibility altogether. Since then, he has always seemed to me to hide behind small sentences which impart little to no information. And, if he has already avoided his responsibility to us once, he may well do so again. I am not implying that he acted in such a way as to purposefully hurt anyone; I am sure he did not mean any harm. it's just that he has a rather silent, minimalist style of communication which he apparently cannot alter even if circumstances clearly require a different set of responses.
You are right that, strictly speaking, we "don't know enough to draw any any conclusions".(that's my principle objection!) .But, in the absence of any details, we have to make the best estimates we can about what is going to happen. Each of has to do that- it's part of taking good care of ourselves). I do think that it is reasonable to assume that, if the study involves Babble, at least some of the study participants will have to be here. It's reasonable, also, that there could be a control group who will not be here. If this weren't the case, why would he make an announcement about it? If the study involved reading Babble, or studying the archives,(a unique source of wonderful case histories- much better than what you usually find in journals) there's no need to say anything.
I guess I should have spoken for myself only. I will feel like a second-class citizen of Babble if I have to deal with study members who know things that I don't know about the study.
I agree completely on one point- if the study members eventually find Babble a valuable resource , that would be wonderful. I don't think there's ever been a problem about welcoming anyone here. We all need one another and are enriched by knowing everyone who chooses to share parts of their lives here.
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