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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 488 to 512 of 536. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 10, 2005, at 4:25:07
In reply to Re: unwelcome, or something else? » Dr. Bob, posted by AuntieMel on June 7, 2005, at 12:31:53
> Maybe, if you are interested in retention, we should just rethink how we welcome newbies.
Sure, I'm open to that, too...
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on June 10, 2005, at 9:29:11
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies, posted by Dr. Bob on June 10, 2005, at 4:25:07
I was thinking that instead of (or along with) the newbie board the newcomers could have an "experienced" person assigned as a mentor of sorts.
It could be a list of volunteers that are emailed when a new person registers - and posts for the first time.
Someone that would explain the ropes and be available for questions.
The relationship could 'officially' last for a couple of weeks, during which the newbie won't get any PBC's or blocks, but the mentor would explain gently any civility violations.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2005, at 10:56:02
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies » Dr. Bob, posted by AuntieMel on June 10, 2005, at 9:29:11
> I was thinking that instead of (or along with) the newbie board the newcomers could have an "experienced" person assigned as a mentor of sorts.
>
> It could be a list of volunteers that are emailed when a new person registers - and posts for the first time.
>
> Someone that would explain the ropes and be available for questions.
>
> The relationship could 'officially' last for a couple of weeks, during which the newbie won't get any PBC's or blocks, but the mentor would explain gently any civility violations.Interesting idea! It would be optional? If a newbie asked for a volunteer, it would be important for one to be available... I think the usual civility guidelines need to apply, since uncivil posts have consequences no matter who posts them (and newbies may not really be newbies).
Separate from newbies, I've also been thinking about "sponsors" here...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on June 11, 2005, at 10:58:11
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2005, at 10:56:02
Posted by Dinah on June 11, 2005, at 11:08:05
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2005, at 10:56:02
I had long ago suggested that people could volunteer to respond to anyone who identified themselves as a newcomer or who had a green flag. Maybe by board.
Sort of unofficial greeters. But not limited to the newbie board.
I also think you should allow anyone to respond to newbies on the newbie board. Who has something to offer will vary based on the subject matter and it seems logical to me that the widest range of potential contributors would lead to the warmest welcome.
But...
Dr. Bob, do you recall how many people said they were attracted to stay and post at the site? Maybe if you ask what things drew people to post for the first time, what made them feel welcome, and why they stayed, it would give you the ability to work backward. As for the people who don't stay, maybe a request for feedback with your email address, or a separate email address just for that purpose, listed prominently on all the pages would enable those who don't feel comfortable posting for the first time or continuing to post to give you direct feedback on why.
Then, if you eliminate those who came for a specific reason, had that answer solved, and had no desire for anything more, you could get some useful information. You could compile a list of reasons, by importance, throw in some statistical material on who is most likely to reply among nonposters (and among posters). Once you do that, if you open the problem to the board, you might be surprised at the good ideas that can come from a good, old fashioned, brainstorming.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by justyourlaugh on June 11, 2005, at 23:06:38
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2005, at 10:56:02
also..the mentor..should have a way to "bail"..things happen..we may not be able to post often..would this not hurt the "newbie more"
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 13, 2005, at 23:11:45
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies, posted by justyourlaugh on June 11, 2005, at 23:06:38
> I had long ago suggested that people could volunteer to respond to anyone who identified themselves as a newcomer or who had a green flag.
Sure, everyone's always been welcome to do that.
> I also think you should allow anyone to respond to newbies on the newbie board. Who has something to offer will vary based on the subject matter and it seems logical to me that the widest range of potential contributors would lead to the warmest welcome.
I agree, but if it's *too* nice at Newbies, they might just want to stay there?
> maybe a request for feedback with your email address, or a separate email address just for that purpose, listed prominently on all the pages would enable those who don't feel comfortable posting for the first time or continuing to post to give you direct feedback on why.
That's a good idea. Should it be multiple choice or completely open-ended?
--
> the mentor..should have a way to "bail"..things happen..we may not be able to post often..would this not hurt the "newbie more"
>
> justyourlaughSure, the mentor would need to be able to take care of themselves, but having a mentor bail might not be optimal, either...
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on June 14, 2005, at 9:26:20
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2005, at 10:56:02
Exactly - a mentor or a sponsor.
Someone from a pool of volunteers, maybe rotating. The difference would be that the 'sponsor' would have an email assigning him/her to the newbie rather than cruise the boards looking for one.
The rotation, or randomness, would keep out any possibilities of 'being chosen last for kickball' feelings.
A person could temporarily take him/herself out of the pool if they need a break. Or if a break is needed midstream, could say "I'm really sorry, but I'm not doing well right now and need a break. I've contacted sponsor_y and she's happy to help you while I'm resting."
Posted by Dinah on June 14, 2005, at 9:44:09
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies, posted by Dr. Bob on June 13, 2005, at 23:11:45
> > I had long ago suggested that people could volunteer to respond to anyone who identified themselves as a newcomer or who had a green flag.
>
> Sure, everyone's always been welcome to do that.No, no. I meant people would volunteer on different boards to do that. Not unlike official greeters on the Newbie board. If there can be official greeters on Newbies, why not elsewhere?
>
> > I also think you should allow anyone to respond to newbies on the newbie board. Who has something to offer will vary based on the subject matter and it seems logical to me that the widest range of potential contributors would lead to the warmest welcome.
>
> I agree, but if it's *too* nice at Newbies, they might just want to stay there?I don't think that would happen. I think they would be encouraged to migrate to the regular boards. Wouldn't it be nice to try it out? You've tried the other method for a while now. You could have a comparison.
>
> > maybe a request for feedback with your email address, or a separate email address just for that purpose, listed prominently on all the pages would enable those who don't feel comfortable posting for the first time or continuing to post to give you direct feedback on why.
>
> That's a good idea. Should it be multiple choice or completely open-ended?
>
Room for both? I haven't started taking my psychology courses yet, so I have no real input on how the best way to design something to yield optimum information would be. ;)> --
>
> > the mentor..should have a way to "bail"..things happen..we may not be able to post often..would this not hurt the "newbie more"
> >
> > justyourlaugh
>
> Sure, the mentor would need to be able to take care of themselves, but having a mentor bail might not be optimal, either...
>
> BobI'm not sure every newbie would need a mentor or sponsor. Maybe if they request it? Let's face it, the majority of people who come here are looking to get an answer to a question, or to see if their side effects or normal. Some decide to stay on. But not everyone who comes here wants to make Babble a way of life. They might actually find having a mentor a bit intrusive. Maybe it's a box you could check in registration? I dunno, though.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 14, 2005, at 17:05:19
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 14, 2005, at 9:44:09
I actually meant one mentor per newbie for all boards. It's actually more to show them the ropes than to answer questions.
Though your way could work, too.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 0:12:34
In reply to Re: how we welcome newbies » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 14, 2005, at 9:44:09
> Someone from a pool of volunteers, maybe rotating.
>
> The rotation, or randomness, would keep out any possibilities of 'being chosen last for kickball' feelings.
>
> AuntieMelHow is it done in AA? Do potential sponsors ever feel "chosen last" there?
--
> I meant people would volunteer on different boards to do that. Not unlike official greeters on the Newbie board. If there can be official greeters on Newbies, why not elsewhere?
They need to be official at Newbies because it's restricted. Elsewhere, anybody can join in...
> Wouldn't it be nice to try it out? You've tried the other method for a while now. You could have a comparison.
Hmm, you have a point there, let me think about it?
> I'm not sure every newbie would need a mentor or sponsor. Maybe if they request it?
>
> DinahRight, it would be optional.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2005, at 8:26:48
In reply to Re: mentors, posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 0:12:34
Ok, one last time.
Having volunteers on other boards, even if they might not be listed, would be recruiting people who would feel they have a special responsibility for greeting newcomers. It doesn't mean others couldn't greet them, but that there would be those who felt a privilege and responsibility to do so.
I don't think it's much of a problem on, say, Psychology, where newcomers are practically overwhelmed with responses if a green flag is near there name. (grin) Social seems to be a lot that way too. But the meds board is so big, and some of the other boards are so small...
A lot of times people don't respond if they don't know what to say. But if someone felt the responsibility, they might just say welcome and direct them to the appropriate board. (Which I try to do, but I'm not always up to date.) Or they might just say welcome. (Which I also try to do even if I don't know what to say.)
The mentoring idea is also a good one for those who desire one. But a reasonable match between mentor and mentee would seem to be at least marginally desirable. How would that be accomplished without distress? Or would the mentor/mentee relationship be such that it wouldn't matter.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2005, at 10:12:09
In reply to Re: mentors, posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 0:12:34
> > Wouldn't it be nice to try it out? You've tried the other method for a while now. You could have a comparison.
>
> Hmm, you have a point there, let me think about it?Good grief!! You mean it is possible for me to word things in such a way that it makes sense to you??? I thought I had lost that ability entirely, if I ever had it.
And in a previous post you acknowledged that small boards would exclude people!
Perhaps I should press my luck, and suggest that conversations be only viewable by those who are free to join them. And that it would have the double advantage of giving those posters who do not currently post (or limit their posting) because they fear public recognition by people in their real lives a place to post, thus increasing total posters. And... if the concern was that posters wouldn't know *which* small board to join, their could be a portal from the main boards to the small boards which could only be entered by altering your registration to mark that you wish to participate in small boards (which would expire if you didn't join a small board in a reasonable length of time). Once within the portal, those who wish to be part of the small boards could read all the small boards. Or whatever. My concern has always been mainly for those who run across small boards through google search, or happen across them accidentally while going around Babble, and get smacked across the face with a "you are not authorized to post to this board, which is full" when they try to join in.
That arrangement wouldn't be quite as polite (polite for purposes of consideration, not form), under Southern standards at least, as only having ability to read the posts on the small board you are registered to post on. But it would be better than the alternative of having small boards readable by anyone who googles them and then is unable to join in.
In fact, that arrangement might be reasonable enough that I could endorse small boards. Maybe even join one. It would largely remove the assault to my sensibilities.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2005, at 10:27:46
In reply to Gee » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2005, at 10:12:09
I do of course realize that obtaining my endorsement is low on your list of priorities. But I would be so grateful with a compromise that would satisfy my lowest level conceptions of consideration that I would join one of the darn things (the mod pink and yellow one, of course).
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 23:54:23
In reply to Re: mentors » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2005, at 8:26:48
> Having volunteers on other boards ... would be recruiting people who would feel they have a special responsibility for greeting newcomers.
Sorry, recruiting people from where?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 23:54:30
In reply to Gee » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2005, at 10:12:09
> if the concern was that posters wouldn't know *which* small board to join, their could be a portal from the main boards to the small boards which could only be entered by altering your registration to mark that you wish to participate in small boards (which would expire if you didn't join a small board in a reasonable length of time). Once within the portal, those who wish to be part of the small boards could read all the small boards. Or whatever.
Part of the idea was to limit posters to one small board at a time, right? I know, more exclusion, but that way they wouldn't be spread as thin...
So if the idea is to require people to join in order to read, then:
1. Their decision to join can't be based on the discussion. Could it be based on the activity level and a list of the members? What about making information like that available to everyone?
2. If they do join, then they can read the discussion. Say they change their mind. How long should they need to wait before being allowed to switch? Since if they can switch right away, that's like being on both boards at the same time.
3. Or, say they join, but don't post. Could they keep their place? For how long?
> My concern has always been mainly for those who run across small boards through google search, or happen across them accidentally while going around Babble, and get smacked across the face with a "you are not authorized to post to this board, which is full" when they try to join in.
*That* has been your main concern? What if I just add, in the "post a follow-up" area, a reminder that it's a restricted board and that non-members will get an error if they click?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 4:21:40
In reply to Re: which small board, posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 23:54:30
> > if the concern was that posters wouldn't know *which* small board to join, their could be a portal from the main boards to the small boards which could only be entered by altering your registration to mark that you wish to participate in small boards (which would expire if you didn't join a small board in a reasonable length of time). Once within the portal, those who wish to be part of the small boards could read all the small boards. Or whatever.
>
> Part of the idea was to limit posters to one small board at a time, right? I know, more exclusion, but that way they wouldn't be spread as thin...
>
I wasn't suggesting they could join more than one small board. You hadn't appeared too open to the idea that reading posts on small boards be limited to only those who could post on them, so I was trying for the next best thing. Since your stated objections to limiting the reading to those who could join in was based on the idea that people would not be able to decide which small group to join.> So if the idea is to require people to join in order to read, then:
>
> 1. Their decision to join can't be based on the discussion. Could it be based on the activity level and a list of the members? What about making information like that available to everyone?I wouldn't know if that would be the sort of information that people would like to have. You would have to ask the people who would like to join one.
>
> 2. If they do join, then they can read the discussion. Say they change their mind. How long should they need to wait before being allowed to switch? Since if they can switch right away, that's like being on both boards at the same time.
>
I don't know. What do you think is fair?
> 3. Or, say they join, but don't post. Could they keep their place? For how long?I would think that would lead to a lot of small dead boards, if they're allowed to keep their places. What sort of length are you thinking about? Could people specify a vacation in advance? Would one or two posts be enough to keep their spot open in a work crunch?
>
> > My concern has always been mainly for those who run across small boards through google search, or happen across them accidentally while going around Babble, and get smacked across the face with a "you are not authorized to post to this board, which is full" when they try to join in.
>
> *That* has been your main concern? What if I just add, in the "post a follow-up" area, a reminder that it's a restricted board and that non-members will get an error if they click?
>
> BobSigh. Sometimes asynchronous communication *isn't* easier. Sometimes it's easier with instant clarification. And hand gestures.
Do you remember how some people decided to post on Babble? Or on Social, if they came here for a medication search? Some people decided to come here based on conversations they found amusing or charming. And when they tried to join in, they were welcomed. That's a gracious, warm, charming, welcoming community.
If they came upon the same conversation on a restricted entry group, it would be equivilant to again trying to join in, but not being welcomed. Afterwards they might decide that this is not a particularly gracious, warm, charming or welcoming community.
So Karen Kay, for example, apparently brought many people to Babble with her delightful ways. People who later stayed and continued to post. Had Karen Kay been so delightful behind a glass door where others could see, but not join in, would the result had been the same? I think it wouldn't have been. Had Karen Kay been so delightful behind a closed door, her posts would have had no impact on new posters, because no one could have run across them.
And contrary to your theory, I don't think that people who were charmed by that conversation, but unable to join in, would be as thrilled being told that they couldn't be part of that group, but they could be a part of this other group instead, as you apparently think.
Plus, my guess is that the set of potential posters who don't post because their posts are googleable and readible by friends and family who might notice that they are posting on the site as they sit in their offices or family rooms is greater than the set of people who don't post because they find Social larger than they would wish.
How many people post on Social at any given time, anyway? Your proposed small groups were limited to 25, right? How many different posters are there on Social in this and the last archive? 50? 100? 200? Any benefits size wise to the new groups might depend more on stability and continued posting (longer than the typical poster now posts on Babble) than on sheer numbers. Posting stability on Babble has historically been low. People find they are spending too much time here. Or they get better. Or they get angry. People feel that if they don't keep up with the posts for a while, they don't know anyone when they come back. The latter could be something curable by small groups, offset by the fact that if many people do that, the group won't be active.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 4:24:23
In reply to Re: mentors, posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 23:54:23
> > Having volunteers on other boards ... would be recruiting people who would feel they have a special responsibility for greeting newcomers.
>
> Sorry, recruiting people from where?
>
> BobI was thinking something like "Hey people! I was looking for a group of posters who would like to volunteer to make newcomers feel at home on a regular basis. Would anyone like to be an official (or semiofficial) greeter for this board?"
I wasn't suggesting you go out on a volunteer hunt on one of those job search sites or anything. :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 17, 2005, at 22:47:57
In reply to Re: mentors, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 4:24:23
> I was thinking something like "Hey people! I was looking for a group of posters who would like to volunteer to make newcomers feel at home on a regular basis. Would anyone like to be an official (or semiofficial) greeter for this board?"
1. I would ask that regularly, or make it part of the introduction to each board?
2. After people volunteered, then what?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 17, 2005, at 22:48:03
In reply to Re: which small board » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 4:21:40
> You hadn't appeared too open to the idea that reading posts on small boards be limited to only those who could post on them, so I was trying for the next best thing.
Great, let's consider that?
> > their could be a portal from the main boards to the small boards which could only be entered by altering your registration to mark that you wish to participate in small boards (which would expire if you didn't join a small board in a reasonable length of time). Once within the portal, those who wish to be part of the small boards could read all the small boards. Or whatever.
So it would be OK for them to read a small board, even if it didn't have any openings, as long as they wished to participate = join some small board?
> Karen Kay, for example, apparently brought many people to Babble with her delightful ways. People who later stayed and continued to post. Had Karen Kay been so delightful behind a glass door where others could see, but not join in, would the result had been the same?
Maybe Karen wouldn't have chosen to be behind a glass door. And if she had, maybe that preference for herself would've been more important than bringing more people in. And either way, lots of other delightful people wouldn't be behind glass doors.
> contrary to your theory, I don't think that people who were charmed by that conversation, but unable to join in, would be as thrilled being told that they couldn't be part of that group, but they could be a part of this other group instead
Of course they wouldn't be thrilled, but maybe they'd stick around a little longer anyway?
> Plus, my guess is that the set of potential posters who don't post because their posts are googleable ... is greater than the set of people who don't post because they find Social larger than they would wish.
Hmm, those are independent issues, how large a board is and whether it's Googleable...
> How many people post on Social at any given time, anyway? Your proposed small groups were limited to 25, right? How many different posters are there on Social in this and the last archive? 50? 100? 200?
In Psychology in January, 2580 posts by 110 posters:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050219/msgs/468378.html
> Any benefits size wise to the new groups might depend more on stability and continued posting
Right, but continued posting might depend on comfort level, which might depend on size...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 23:43:00
In reply to Re: the next best thing, posted by Dr. Bob on June 17, 2005, at 22:48:03
Dr. Bob!!!
A real conversation! I knew you could do it!
I think I'll enjoy feeling heard for a while before I reply. :)
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2005, at 0:47:05
In reply to Re: the next best thing, posted by Dr. Bob on June 17, 2005, at 22:48:03
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 18, 2005, at 2:17:18
In reply to (See how little it takes to make me happy?) (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 18, 2005, at 0:47:05
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2005, at 23:31:21
In reply to Re: the next best thing, posted by Dr. Bob on June 17, 2005, at 22:48:03
> > You hadn't appeared too open to the idea that reading posts on small boards be limited to only those who could post on them, so I was trying for the next best thing.
>
> Great, let's consider that?
Ahhhh... Still basking. In fact, I rather hate to continue the conversation. Wait a second.Ahhhhh.... being heard....
Sigh. Ok.
>
> > > their could be a portal from the main boards to the small boards which could only be entered by altering your registration to mark that you wish to participate in small boards (which would expire if you didn't join a small board in a reasonable length of time). Once within the portal, those who wish to be part of the small boards could read all the small boards. Or whatever.
>
> So it would be OK for them to read a small board, even if it didn't have any openings, as long as they wished to participate = join some small board?That would be a definite step in the right direction. Since it would decrease the chance of someone stumbling into what looked like a situation where they would be welcomed, when in actuality they would not.
> > Karen Kay, for example, apparently brought many people to Babble with her delightful ways. People who later stayed and continued to post. Had Karen Kay been so delightful behind a glass door where others could see, but not join in, would the result had been the same?
>
> Maybe Karen wouldn't have chosen to be behind a glass door. And if she had, maybe that preference for herself would've been more important than bringing more people in. And either way, lots of other delightful people wouldn't be behind glass doors.I'm quite certain you are right. ;) But I should say no more...
> > contrary to your theory, I don't think that people who were charmed by that conversation, but unable to join in, would be as thrilled being told that they couldn't be part of that group, but they could be a part of this other group instead
>
> Of course they wouldn't be thrilled, but maybe they'd stick around a little longer anyway?To be blunt, why? My feelings were hurt when you slapped my hand over the party, and I've been here aeons and understood your position. If my hand were slapped first thing, why would I want to stay around?
> > Plus, my guess is that the set of potential posters who don't post because their posts are googleable ... is greater than the set of people who don't post because they find Social larger than they would wish.
>
> Hmm, those are independent issues, how large a board is and whether it's Googleable...Yes, and one argument is that non-googleable boards would kill two birds with one stone, since you have already gotten feedback that some people would prefer to be able to chat where there conversations weren't open for all to see. But the equally valid argument would be that two independent variables should not be altered at the same time if you are to measure the result on the dependent variable and come to reliable conclusions. (I'm studying chapter 1 for my CLEP, sorry.)
Soooo... let's see. Making the private boards private is still the considerate and polite thing to do. Hmmmm.... Maybe you could also start a PsychoBabble-NonGoogleable board. Where only those who are registered at Babble can read, and where posts are not googleable. That would give you another group where only the googleability and ability to read by non-Babblers would be the independent variable. To compare against private nongoogleable boards. And also against public googleable boards.
>
> > How many people post on Social at any given time, anyway? Your proposed small groups were limited to 25, right? How many different posters are there on Social in this and the last archive? 50? 100? 200?
>
> In Psychology in January, 2580 posts by 110 posters:
Wow!!! I know and like that many people? I am impressed! And yet Psychological feels so warm and cozy... What a testament to the warm and welcoming nature of Babblers.> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050219/msgs/468378.html
>
> > Any benefits size wise to the new groups might depend more on stability and continued posting
>
> Right, but continued posting might depend on comfort level, which might depend on size...
>
> BobAgreed, to a certain extent. I'm willing to concede that there are those who find the main boards intimidating. Even though I also personally feel that the risk involved is more than repaid by the benefits gained. But the point I am unwilling to concede is that there are more polite and less polite (polite in the considerate and thoughtful meaning of the word, not as in meaningless protocol), and more divisive and less divisive, ways of achieving the same goals, and that more polite and less divisive ways are far preferable.
Paying to be part of a private board seems like a good idea as well, especially since it would also allow you to dip your toes into another idea you've been toying with for some time. Except it is likely (and rightly so in some respects, you must admit) to initiate a firestorm from those who legitimately can't pay for one reason or another.
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2005, at 23:32:19
In reply to Re: :-) (nm) » Dinah, posted by Dr. Bob on June 18, 2005, at 2:17:18
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