![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 133. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:31:39
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 18:17:08
> > people trust * Bob with registration and other personal info,
>
> Some do and some don'tWell, again, it would seem to be a reasonable assumption that those who don't trust Dr. Bob with that information... don't.
>
> > Deputies do *not* have access to any of that.
>
> For now, the deputy or deputies don't.
>I see no indication that that will change in the anywhere near future.
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 18:37:38
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:31:39
> > > Deputies do *not* have access to any of that.
> >
> > For now, the deputy or deputies don't.
> >
>
> I see no indication that that will change in the anywhere near future.
Things change without indication every minute of every day. I see no indication he will ever share power with others on his professional tier, so eventually, either the user information will need to be destroyed, or the "community" will own it.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:49:26
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 18:37:38
I would guess when that sad day comes, destruction would be the choice. At least I hope so. I trust Dr. Bob completely. Not only with the registration info, but with other info as well. I'd be ok if he decided, like PsychCentral, not to allow Yahoo or Hotmail or other of that type of email address to be used for registration. I'd be ok (although I know many wouldn't and I'm not trying to open that discussion again, just the trust aspect) with giving Dr. Bob credit card info.
I really like the posters at Babble, but I wouldn't want the information that Dr. Bob has to be owned by the community. It may not look like it, but I don't really trust easily. Dr. Bob has earned my trust.
For one thing, Dr. Bob's the only one among us (ok, with a very few exceptions) who is willing to be open about who he is. For another thing, although some may disagree, he's always been very consistent about who he is. And finally, I have reason to know through emails that his discretion is absolute.
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 19:29:57
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:49:26
> I trust Dr. Bob completely.
Yes, I recall a recent post in which you compared him to god.
He says he would rather have members than peers share administrative duties because "they know the culture". That got me to thinking about the etymologies of "cult" and "culture".
Each derive from Latin "colere" -- to till -- but by the 19th Century, in English, cult had come to refer to worship, and eventually "devotion to a person or thing", whereas culture evolved to mean the collective customs and achievements of a people.
In modern usage, the words can describe similar concepts, but there are implicit differences. "Cult" usually describes groups that might be ideologically isolated even in a social milieu where they are otherwise integrated, that are governed by a lone individual whose authority is absolute at least in the context of the group, whose beliefs are original and idiosyncratic, and where members are required by the nature of group processes to take-it or leave-it when it comes to trusting the group leader even though social processes develop to encourage members to take-it instead of rejecting the leaders' authority and leaving.
A useful difference in how the meanings evolved might be how one describes "a people". In modern internet culture, any anonymous group that shares an archive of their own writing tends to define their group as a "community" but I wonder if that rises to the level of "a people". Maybe that's where various measures of isolation becomes useful, especially the extent to which group culture differs from the culture at large in the places from which members are recruited.
I'm not sure how I may say that fits here, but this site sure provided food for thought. And I was thinking, how is this culture something other psychiatrists couldn't, wouldn't or don't understand in the same way participants do?
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:53:30
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 19:29:57
> > I trust Dr. Bob completely.
>
> Yes, I recall a recent post in which you compared him to god.Sigh. You know better than that.
I didn't say I thought he was perfect, or flawless. He and I butt heads regularly, as I'm sure you know.
I trust him, and I trust him appropriately. I trust him to do the things (or not to do the things) that he has shown consistently that he will (or will not) do. I trust him to be kind. I trust him to be consistent unto himself. I trust him to be discreet (more discreet than I'd like on occasion). I trust him to behave with decorum and dignity. I trust him to always have the best interests of Babble in his mind, although I don't trust him to have the *right* ideas about how to go about it (which would, of course, be mine). I trust him to forgive, and to be willing to start over. I trust him to understand meltdowns. I trust him to try to change in some ways, if he clearly understands what people are looking for and why.
I also trust him to be stubborn, and almost impossible to sway. I trust him to be maddeningly elusive and enigmatic. And while I trust him to be intelligent and witty, I also trust him to be astonishingly difficult to converse with at times.
And please don't take that second paragraph out of context of the first. Everyone is made up of strong and weak points, and most people's weak points are the flip sides of their strong sides. The things that character-wise make it possible to run a place like this under nearly constant attack are also the things that make him frustrating at times.
I like Dr. Bob. I care about Dr. Bob. I trust Dr. Bob. I don't worship Dr. Bob or think he's perfect. This isn't a cult. If you leave the Admin board, you'll see that Dr. Bob doesn't play the major role in interactions here. We do.
Babble suits some people. It doesn't suit others. And why shouldn't that be ok? There is absolutely no way for Babble (or any other place, institution, etc.) to suit everyone.
Posted by Phillipa on May 22, 2005, at 20:01:20
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 19:29:57
I've found a lot of friends here on Babble. Have exchanged E-mail addresses and even pictures. We consider ourselves friends. I love Babble and Dr. Bob. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 20:40:53
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:53:30
> > > I trust Dr. Bob completely.
> >
> > Yes, I recall a recent post in which you compared him to god.
>
> Sigh. You know better than that.I best know what I know. Isn't Hsiung the one who says what we write has forensic value?
> I trust him, ... I trust ... I trust him ... I trust him ... I trust him ... I trust him ... I trust him ... I trust him ... I don't trust him ... I trust him ... I trust him ... I trust him ...>
Would you trust anyone else in the same way? Would you trust another person -- a professional peer of his -- to balance traits you describe as ...
> stubborn> almost impossible to sway
>maddeningly elusive and enigmatic
>astonishingly difficult to converse with
>
<snipped more requesting that I recall context because I definately notice the context. You say you trust someone completely though you readily cite traits that seem to be less than becoming of a person in a public, diplomatic role. Wouldn't it be more of a culture if the leadership represented the collective values of people capable of balancing each other rather than of a single person who indefinately retains a superior status?
>
> I like Dr. Bob. I care about Dr. Bob. I trust Dr. Bob. I don't worship Dr. Bob or think he's perfect. This isn't a cult.Did I say it's a cult? I just said the site led me to consider elements of cult as opposed to culture. Do you find it interesting he asserts members would understand the culture he has established here better than his peers would?
> If you leave the Admin board, you'll see that Dr. Bob doesn't play the major role in interactions here. We do.
If I thought is was safe out there, I would post to other boards, which of course I read. The most words are written by members for sure, but the tone and the content is dictated and segregated by the adminstration -- what is "biological" -- what is "social" -- what is "political" -- what is "alternative" -- what is psychological -- what is and is not "faith", the list goes on. Sure, threaded message boards developed so discussion can land in the right place, but in some cases segregation can serve to define. In my experience, extreme attention to keeping everything in it's correct conceptual place -- when it goes beyond making it easy to find information to include making sure the information doesn't challenge governing doctrines -- can be a symptom of authoritarian leadership.
>
> Babble suits some people. It doesn't suit others. And why shouldn't that be ok? There is absolutely no way for Babble (or any other place, institution, etc.) to suit everyone.Have I heard that before? Generalizing doesn't deal with specifics. How badly does the experience not suit some people until they find out it's not for them? How does your analysis look in another context? What if people are put off or even harmed, some maybe to the point of death, because someone is ...
> stubborn
> almost impossible to sway
> maddeningly elusive and enigmatic
> astonishingly difficult to converse with
... but who claims to be offering help. Couldn't that make some people feel put down? Is it okay for some people to make other people feel put down, if they are wealthy enough to own a facility they can control to their own liking?
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:48:32
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by Dr. Bob on May 22, 2005, at 9:20:22
> My idea has been that the deputy administrators would be the (administrative) team. Since they know the culture here.
Yeah... But...
I think you might be underestimating how much your training etc helps you make informed decisions about what is most likely to benefit the forum...Not saying that you shouldn't consult with the admin team of course ;-)
But just worried about the idea of the admin team running the place without you...I think Babble would be a LOT different if it became consumer run. Consumers tend to have mental health issues which impact on some of their decisions / perspectives. There are a lot of consumer run boards out there and IMO they lack consistency with respect to decision making and have a tendancy to vanish when moderators / members encounter personal crisis...
> I do consult with other colleagues from time to time, too.Good.
:-)
> To continue without me, there would need to be someone who could handle the technical side of things...More than that...
More than that...I still think other professionals would be a good idea...
Is it that it is hard to get people interested...
Or that you like this being your site???I mean... It IS your site.
But other people being around wouldn't change that...
Is it hard because they tend to have very different ideas etc???
Couldn't they try and convince you via the admin board (like everyone else) or do they just give up round about there...?
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:51:07
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:53:30
I trust him too...
And I know you mean the following:
> I also trust him to be stubborn, and almost impossible to sway. I trust him to be maddeningly elusive and enigmatic. And while I trust him to be intelligent and witty, I also trust him to be astonishingly difficult to converse with at times.
In the nicest possible way :-)
I think that anyone who knows you will know that too...
(((Dinah)))
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:53:04
In reply to Re: team effort » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:48:32
... I don't get the research thing...
IMO Babble is a research project
(or two, or eight...)
Just waiting to happen...But then I know I've read some stuff here about the posters not liking to think that people do research on Babble...
Is that what that is about?????
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:56:08
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 20:40:53
Ahhh, you did the one thing I asked you not to do, so I'm afraid I can't converse with you further on this topic.
I think better of both of us than that.
After all, I didn't put a single smiley in my post to you, and I'm rather fond of smileys. And I made a genuine effort in discourse, without hidden agendas or meanings.
I did you the honor of speaking freely of Dr. Bob's strengths and weaknesses, as I perceive them. And you used my post in a way that it wasn't intended, and in a meaning contrary to its meaning.
If you don't wish to have that level of honest open discourse with me, just tell me next time.
And if you ever wish to have that type of discourse with me, in earnest, let me know and we can try again.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:59:29
In reply to Re: team effort » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:51:07
It's nothing I haven't said openly to him before. And he knows I hold him in the highest esteem, despite my occasional intense frustration. If he took it in any other way than the way I meant it, I'd be astonished.
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 21:17:18
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 20:40:53
I didn't get the sense that anyone was especially keen on exploring the direct meaning of my side of the discussion, either. I just don't share that much faith in him. It doesn't mean he doesn't have good intentions, or that a few people don't benefit from his efforts.
I wonder if it's not a feeling vs. thinking thing. Maybe this site favors people who value their feelings, but a person like me who will die feeling bad if it means I can reach a deeper understanding on my way out is bound to be depreciated. There are historic, well-developed systems of thought that don't place that much value on feelings.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:30:15
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 21:17:18
I don't think you'll find that I tried to depreciate you. I tried to discuss with you what seemed to be of concern to you, within the parameters that you said you found comfortable.
I just didn't appreciate my post being used as ammo against Dr. Bob, when we both knew it wasn't intended that way.
I'd be happy to continue talking to you, if we do so on an open and honest level. I'm not trying to put you down. I'm trying to understand you, and to give you the opportunity to understand me if you wish to do so.
Alexandra also highly values thought. It's a shame the two of you can't discourse about that.
I'm sort of in between. I see the evolutionary benefit of both rational thought and feeling. I don't believe in discounting either. But I have a feeling I value intuition more than you do...
Posted by Phillipa on May 22, 2005, at 21:36:11
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:30:15
Having worked in psych and been nationally certified I know the value of feelings and what and how they affect a person's level of functioning. Feelings are neither right or wrong. They are individual as we are all individuals. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 21:49:29
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:30:15
Dinah, if you are going to publish your criticisms or your praise, its fair that i or anyone else reflect them in a way that might tease more meaning out of it than you have confronted.
I think what you're referring to isn't how I paraphrased anything you wrote, but that I excerpted it in a pure form. That seems fair to me. Can't we get some mutuality going here -- you're not keen on affirming my point of view and I'm not feeling the need to affirm your viewpoint. We're removed by distance and by anonymity, it really doesn't need to be a threatening thing.
I'm critical of what's going on here, and maybe have some of the same those stubborn, difficult-to-engage traits you site in the administration. Maybe that's the most I have to contribute here - a head as hard as his. You'll probably get more prose out of me than you will him.
I'm overjoyed Alexander_K sees the same value I do in him finding peers to share the mental workload. Mostly it's just that I have some other community projects going here on my computer -- way outside this community -- and the arguments weren't really getting anywhere. I tend to want to pull a real load and I'm not all that keen on comparing viewpoints on theoretical matters, but as I've stated and as you can see, I don't easily disengage. At least I've not taken measures to tickle the admin into giving me a month off.
Now, I'm going to the store, and I'm tyring to learn some programing languages, but I'm interested. Let that count for something.
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 21:54:43
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:30:15
Here's an overture --
How about I ask alexander_K not to post to me anymore in those two threads. Then I've acknowledged your concern about that, I've backed off a bit, and if the idea of a limited do-not-post-to-me rule seems plausible, Bob Hsiung can add it to his code, then I can *feel* like I've accomplished something by proposing a more limited way for people to disengage here without putting each other all the way off.
Reasonable?
I still think he needs professional help *running the site* and alexander_K can be a useful allie for me in that cause.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:11:16
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 21:54:43
Fair enough.
But I don't think even the formidable Alexandra (she's a she) will be enough of an ally to wear down Dr. Bob.
Perhaps it would be more productive to think of outcomes, and brainstorm ways to get there.
For example, is it the continued existence of the board that worries you?
The harm caused to individual posters by blocks? While I've never been blocked, so perhaps have no real frame of reference, the main harm that has been caused to me here has been from fellow posters. Although Dr. Bob has been granted the power to hurt me, and has, as is inevitable in all relationships, he hasn't caused me any real damage. While other posters have, on occasion.
Is it the interpretation of the rules? I notice that you have a great interest in language. But isn't it possible that multiple administrators would actually increase the amount of variability in interpretation? Do you think it would be worthwhile for someone like you, with a greater interest and facility in the nuances of language than I have, try to better explain the civility rules in words that would be easily understood by all?
(Have you been to PsychCentral? I don't think Dr. Grohol has a lot of professional input does he? I know he has "mods" on the boards, but I don't think they're professionals. Perhaps that's the way these boards work...)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 22:21:07
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:11:16
To no-one in particular, of course...
;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 22:22:49
In reply to Re: Sorry... Which two threads???, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 22:21:07
What fun would the admin. board be without you???
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 22:24:21
In reply to Re: team effort » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:59:29
> It's nothing I haven't said openly to him before.
Yeah...
I think I've sent him an email or two to that effect myself...>And he knows I hold him in the highest esteem, despite my occasional intense frustration. If he took it in any other way than the way I meant it, I'd be astonished.
Ditto.
I hope.
I did apologise :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 22:44:28
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:11:16
> But I don't think even the formidable Alexandra (she's a she) will be enough of an ally to wear down Dr. Bob.
:-)
Well...
Perhaps I have more hope because we managed to get the posting restriction to the students board lifted.It took a while...
But we got there in the end
:-)So...
IMO there is hope
:-)
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 23:06:23
In reply to Re: team effort, posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 21:54:43
If the major concern is informed consent, perhaps we could all brainstorm a paragraph in the registration process.
Something along the lines of internet groups being occasionally volatile places, and there is always the possibility of conflict. Please check with your personal mental health providers about whether this board would be appropriate to you at this time. The civility guidelines of this site are explained at xxxx and you might also wish to do a search on "Please Be Civil" if the issue is of concern to you. The first violation of the site guidelines will result in a warning, and successive violations will result in "blocks" of increasing length. Please further be advised that some people find being sanctioned or blocked distressing, and if you believe it may be for you it might be advisable to consult with your personal mental health provider about whether participation on this site is right for you at this time.
I've never claimed to be good with words, but you get the general idea.
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 23:44:52
In reply to Re: team effort » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:11:16
> Perhaps it would be more productive to think of outcomes, and brainstorm ways to get there.
The outcome I would like to see is a better-rested administration. There is this notion in the medical profession that people can work any hour of the day, seven days a week, and whatever they put out is some gift of mercy to the clients. But you wouldn't trust your life to a pilot flying under those conditions. This isn't a surgical ward, but people come here with problems just as critical. I'm sorry, but I simply don't accept as sound psychiatric advice that anyone can work a job -- an after-midnight-shift -- 365 days a year, without ever a break, and always provide the best service for the customer.
My perspective is when a person makes a mistake in judgement under those conditions, they often write rules to codify their mistaken judgement because they have the authority to do so, and they dare not admit that they made a specific mistake. Then they go about justifying their mistaken rules, and start to engage others in supporting their mistake as if it were the best possible outcome.
And the fact that it is free isn't justification. If people need this sort of service, they need quality service. That it is a volunteer effort is not a reason to comprimise service. Quality service involves administrative planning and that is probably not what happens when someone occasionally presents a talk to peers about their web project, or seeks feedback from peers in a casual setting. Planning occurs when peers with the power to veto each other intentionally sit around the table and think through difficult scenarios before confronting it in a clinical situation.
> For example, is it the continued existence of the board that worries you?Sorry, your question returns a divide by zero error. I would be slightly disappointed if the Internet ceased to exist, because there are not such good libraries by my house but this site? I'm sure you folks would find other things to do, and I wish I would already.
> The harm caused to individual posters by blocks?More by the inconsistent application of ambiguous arbitrary rules, backed by a chorus of explanations by Bob's supporters, which some people just don't comprehend.
>
> Is it the interpretation of the rules?>I notice that you have a great interest in language. But isn't it possible that multiple administrators would actually increase the amount of variability in interpretation?
Could. Unless they started taking time to plan, and articulated their interpretations in writing, that we could read. And I'm not talking about essays that say "I don't know it till I see it." I wonder how many hours he has spent explaining to peers, in some way other than justifying, what are his rules, compared to the time he spends imposing them. This is what I'm saying -- once people get to the top tier of the medical trade, they have a broad license to do as they please, and often submit to no other authority than their own judgement.
> Do you think it would be worthwhile for someone like you, with a greater interest and facility in the nuances of language than I have, try to better explain the civility rules in words that would be easily understood by all?Probably a web cam would do me more good, so I could see what side of bed he gets up on after his five hours of sleep. Unless he doesn't work mornings, that is.
> (Have you been to PsychCentral? I don't think Dr. Grohol has a lot of professional input does he? I know he has "mods" on the boards, but I don't think they're professionals. Perhaps that's the way these boards work...)I don't remember these boards by name as much as by appearance and feel of the posts. This one doesn't have boxes around the messages -- it's powered by Matt's BB and the atmosphere is unique -- the harder he pushes for civility, it seems the less reasonable people become, and I believe it is because he overemphasizes feelings -- and his speculations about hypothetical feelings -- rather than leading toward an exchange of information. I think I recall reading that he and Grohol were both influenced by some late-90's Internet fad that involved some psuedo-virtual reality rooms, icons, avatars, pins and blocks. It was all the rage until whatever came the next summer. And without directly saying so, I think that fad might be much of the basis for their individually different styles.
I seem to recall a Harvard or Mass General board that was very reasonable. I didn't closely examine the administration, because the role of administraton didn't seem that evident. Hsiungs philosophy seems to be that people learn from seeing other's publicly chastized. Well, that's only regular members of the group, but members come and go, and they stumble into things he hasn't regulated, so they get the idea that's okay. Or they read old posts from before he made up the latest rule.
I don't know exactly where professional involvement would lead him, but if it wasnt' about presenting his accomplishments as "research" in a publish-or-perish academic enviornment, but instead about providing an actual service, they might go beyond the "whatever we can afford is good enough for you" budget. If people really need this service, he should be able to articulate the need to a funding agency. I'm not talking research funding, either. I think we probably all agree on one thing - that there is wealth available to provide health care that is not beign spent on health care, and whatever means we recognize, we agree people are suffering and dying as a result. This board can be seen as a service people use becuase other services simply arent' available -- not from local spiritual centers, not from local medical centers, not from local or federal budgets -- nowhere.
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 23:55:47
In reply to or.... » so, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 23:06:23
I don't think padding the room is going to resolve any of my concerns. I want him to get at least as much sleep as is required of an over-the-road trucker, I want him to justify his rules to peers with the authority to say "i don't think so" in the same way he would justify a procedure to a insurance company or hospital administrator, and I want him to lead by example of taking regular time away from critical duty to restore his own mental health before involving himself in the lives of anonymous strangers seeking sometimes critical care. Is that too much to ask?
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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