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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dr. Bob on February 20, 2003, at 8:35:00
In reply to Re: Shutting down the Babbles » shar, posted by Alii on February 20, 2003, at 0:47:11
> This resource is harming people and these people are not reporting their adverse advent reports since Bob has hidden it somewhere within the PBA posts.
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or their experiences.
It's a good idea, making the adverse event form easier to find, so I've added something to the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#advent
> Life is change. One of those changes might be that these sites may not run forever. You just never know.
Now, how are we to recognize Nature's most excellent web sites? Whatever does not kill them makes them stronger.
--Friedrich Nietzsche, Ecce Homo (adapted), 1889
http://www.cwu.edu/~millerj/nietzsche/eh1.htmlBob
Posted by Alii on February 20, 2003, at 9:35:51
In reply to Re: please be civil » Alii, posted by Dr. Bob on February 20, 2003, at 8:35:00
> > This resource is harming people and these people are not reporting their adverse advent reports since Bob has hidden it somewhere within the PBA posts.
>
> Please don't jump to conclusions about others or their experiences.
>
> It's a good idea, making the adverse event form easier to find, so I've added something to the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#advent
>
> > Life is change. One of those changes might be that these sites may not run forever. You just never know.
>
> Now, how are we to recognize Nature's most excellent web sites? Whatever does not kill them makes them stronger.
> --Friedrich Nietzsche, Ecce Homo (adapted), 1889
> http://www.cwu.edu/~millerj/nietzsche/eh1.html
>
> BobSo Nietzsche's "god is dead" is a no-no here on the Babble sites but you are able to adapt his words for your own usage? (anyone remember another poster being blocked for using Nietzche's quotes?)
Dr. Bob you continue to amaze me with your inconsistency.
~Alii
Posted by shar on February 20, 2003, at 14:04:21
In reply to Re: Shutting down the Babbles » shar, posted by Alii on February 20, 2003, at 0:47:11
> Shar,
>
> Life is change. One of those changes might be that these sites may not run forever. You just never know.........Too true.
>
> This resource is harming people........you know, this statement has been made many times by many people, and in my experience, it's when someone disagrees with or is ticked off by an administrative type decision (to block or not block someone, for example).
.........I would like to hear how this resource harms people, from a mental health perspective. Not just ticks them off, or upsets them, or doesn't do what they want...but really harms them.
.........Harm, to me, would entail a setback in one's recovery, it would mean that a person is less able to go on in their life due to this board, or that they ended up in the ER or hospitalized due to this board. And, not just because some other poster said something that had a negative impact (like touting Jesus to an atheist, or name-calling) on the reader.
........To me, this board is a microcosm of life. There are good and bad things being said, but, unlike life, there is some effort to moderate the bad things. Now, things don't get moderated to everyone's satisfaction--including mine. I have been pissed about administrative decisions, and said so, and I've been upset at other poster's writings at times, and said so, and sometimes join the fray. And, I've had times where I've stayed away from topics because I know that they would upset me, so I could choose to bypass them and did.
.......Harm needs to be carefully defined, in my opinion. And, if people are, in fact, being harmed--their recovery from mental illness is compromised due to the Babbles--and this happens to people on a regular basis, then maybe the boards should be shut down.
.......From my perspective, I see more help and support than hindrance here. For the people who have been upset or maybe blocked, some return to do mischief, stir things up, and some return after looking for a better place to be and not finding it and give and receive support here.
........So, back to the issue of harm. It's easy to toss that out there, and it's a good 'hook' as well. I hope that people who do make adverse event reports are not allowed to just say "the site harmed me" but need to provide some detailed information on how that occurred, and the impact it had on their recovery, and their ability to go forward with their lives.
>and these people are not reporting their adverse advent reports since Bob has hidden it somewhere within the PBA posts.
........but, almost always when a person says 'I'm going to report you' someone jumps in with information on exactly how to do so. And, I was glad to see that how to report has been put in the FAQs.
>I feel that the folks being harmed the most by this site have just as much right to speak to the appropriate persons or organizations so that their voices are heard.
........me, too.
>
> The same right that you have to voice your discord with anyone who dares to question the fashion under which these Babble sites are run.
>......very true, unless it happens to be dr. bob who is the recipient of my voiced discord at the moment. :)
> There are ethical and moral questions regarding testing on human subjects
.......yes, and I fully support those guidelines, and in many cases feel they need to be stronger and applied to non-human subjects also.
>and I'm not sure that Dr. Bob is fully aware of the impact these sites have on those subject since he tends to respond in a cut and paste fashion to most kurfuffles.
..........this is another type of statement, similar to the "harm" one, where "impact" is not very descriptive of what actually occurs. I am assuming you mean negative impact, and I would be very interested to know exactly what you mean by that. Just like saying this site is harming people, it sounds good, raises eyebrows, generates concern, but doesn't tell the story. And, with all the "harm" and "negative impact" we have in our society and around the world to all factions of the population in many different ways, the words themselves become a trigger.
Shar
>
> ~A.
Posted by Miller on February 20, 2003, at 15:52:14
In reply to Re: Shutting down the Babbles » Alii, posted by shar on February 20, 2003, at 14:04:21
Shar,
Thank you for saying a lot of what I have been thinking since reading this thread. I too have gotten irritated at times, was put off abit from posts, and have had to realign some of my communication style to adjust to this site.
However, in no way have I been harmed or feel like I may be harmed. I have met very supportive and caring people, have seen the hurt in other posters as they try to make sense of their emotions, and have seen posts that made my eyes pop.
This site is a micro-society of our making. We make as we want it, with the supervison of Dr. Bob. I hope he never gets too discouraged from the complaining and closes the site. It will be a loss to all involved.
:)
-Jyl
Posted by coral on February 20, 2003, at 19:09:20
In reply to Re: Shutting down the Babbles » Alii, posted by shar on February 20, 2003, at 14:04:21
Would it be possible to speak from the "I" position on these issues, such as harm? Given the anonymity of any internet site, it would be difficult (without proper documentation) to have any veracity to a plural statement. Like you, I don't equate harm with being ticked off, upset, etc., and, in fact, agree with your definition of harm.
What I don't understand is if a person is being harmed, why would a person continue to come to the site?
Coral
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 20, 2003, at 22:25:24
In reply to Shar- Very well put » shar, posted by Miller on February 20, 2003, at 15:52:14
jyl,
very well said as well,
however(i use that word alot eh?)i think the "eye popping"post should not ever be deleated.
an angry post,or a "nonpleasant one"
is a valid post,
are we all sunshine and lollipops?
i think not,
if the world is suppose to be passive..
i want out....
jyl
-hay miller-i think i should shannon now,
shannonjyl
Posted by Miller on February 20, 2003, at 23:54:55
In reply to Re: Shar- Very well put » Miller, posted by justyourlaugh on February 20, 2003, at 22:25:24
Hello my friend,
As for deleting posts...
I guess I am mixed on that. I did have a post of mine delted due to it's content. Although I meant no harm, other's didn't see it that way. I was not hurt that it was deleted (the punishment) I was hurt because I felt so inadequate. Does that make any sense?
Anyway, I have definate opinions on some of the rules here, but, I have to accept I don't make them. If I want to stay, I have to follow them.
:) Welcome, Shannonjyl.
-Miller (Jyl) **people are going to think we are talking in a secret "Jyl" language!!**
Posted by Dinah on February 21, 2003, at 10:16:48
In reply to Re: Shutting down the Babbles » Alii, posted by shar on February 20, 2003, at 14:04:21
I have to be completely honest here, Shar. There was a time when my participation was harmful to me in the way you describe. It wasn't anything Dr. Bob did though. It was more the nature of the internet and blank screen it provides, and my lack of experience in interacting with others (beyond family and a few long term friends).
Dr. Bob's involvement in the board minimized rather than exacerbated my difficulties. Things would have been much worse in a free for all board. No, they wouldn't have been because I wouldn't have stayed more than five minutes, judging by my reaction to other sites.
I am completely at a loss for why people who conclude that this isn't the right setting for them feel that they need to take it away from those for whom it is the right setting.
Due to my own personality, I also am perplexed that people are so upset by the completely reasonable civility rules of the site. There are standards of expected behavior wherever you go. I employ the civility standards... Well I employ them everywhere, so I'm not a good example. But I imagine most people apply them at work and at their kids schools and at church and so on.
It used to make me nervous for fear that I would inadvertantly cross the line when I was trying to express myself. It still does sometimes. I have my moments were I am relieved to find out I haven't crossed the line.
Dr. Bob's not perfect, but he's as close to it as any human being can be. Don't get a big head Dr. Bob :). None of us would be perfect, although we might all be imperfect in different directions.
I also have this burning desire to know how people think Dr. Bob would run this board if he were doing it purely for altruistic reasons, with no research involved (instead of mostly for altruistic reasons - the amount of research he can glean from this place could not possibly make up for the headaches). I can't imagine that he would possibly do anything differently. I think he runs this site as he thinks it should be run, and his research has nothing to do with his administrative decisions. But I would be fascinated by hearing that others, for example, think that Dr. Bob would have no civility standards except for the research. Or that they think he gives more blocks or PBC's because of his research. Or see how others would complete the sentence "If there were no research involved, Babble would be different in the following ways:"
I worked through my problems with my therapist, and in the relatively safe experimental (experimental for me, for me not Dr. Bob) space this board provides, and I think I ended up better off in the long run. So short term regression follwed by long term emotional gain from these boards has been my own experience.
But I don't think it could be said that there is *no* potential for harm by participating in these boards.
Posted by shar on February 21, 2003, at 12:45:22
In reply to Re: Shutting down the Babbles » shar, posted by Dinah on February 21, 2003, at 10:16:48
> I have to be completely honest here, Shar. There was a time when my participation was harmful to me in the way you describe.
> But I don't think it could be said that there is *no* potential for harm by participating in these boards.
I agree, Dinah, and wasn't trying to say there is no potential for harm. I was trying to get clarification on what someone meant when they said "this board is harming people." I just wasn't able to, on my own, think of a way that the Babbles were harming people.
(If you're willing to share this info...) When you felt harmed here, did you consider it an adverse event, and file an adverse event report? I would be interested in what that process required in terms of describing the nature of the event, if you are willing to share it.
If you didn't file, was there a reason you chose not to? Or, maybe you didn't realize you could, and would have if you'd known?
Please don't feel pressured to share any of the info I asked about, as I understand it's very personal stuff, and it is only my curiosity that leads me to ask. I don't know what they look for in an adverse event report.
Shar
Posted by Dinah on February 21, 2003, at 17:38:02
In reply to Re: Shutting down the Babbles » Dinah, posted by shar on February 21, 2003, at 12:45:22
This was a while back, Shar. But even if it had been more recent, after the adverse event info, I doubt I would have filed a report.
I emailed Dr. Bob a few times about it and explained the problem as best I could, so that he would have the information for his research. I trusted and do trust Dr. Bob to take the information seriously.
Psycho-Babble can be a powerful force, and powerful forces can have a positive or negative influence. Overall it's been positive for me.
But it had nothing to do with Dr. Bob being authoritarian. :)
Posted by kara lynne on February 22, 2003, at 23:28:35
In reply to Re: blocked for week » Simcha, posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2003, at 20:12:04
I'm a little confused. I don't want to read through all of these posts, so maybe my response will be too uninformed to be valid. But what I'm getting is that if someone's being tyrannical we're not supposed to say that it's tyrannical because that's uncivil? So to call the uncivil "uncivil" is uncivil?
Posted by stjames on February 23, 2003, at 2:35:31
In reply to To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by kara lynne on February 22, 2003, at 23:28:35
>But what I'm getting is that if someone's being >tyrannical we're not supposed to say that it's >tyrannical because that's uncivil? So to call >the uncivil "uncivil" is uncivil?
yes and no. Just because someone is uncivil
does not allow you to be uncivil. I suspect
"tyrannical" would be uncivil but "I notice you have alot of anger and it is difficult for me to take" or "I feel putdown by some of your statements" ect would be civil.It is not always easy to hold back when buttons are pushed. I have gotten blocked for letting someone have it from time to time. I have never disagreed with bobs blocking of myself. But, tempting though it be to lash back, it is really a much more powerful stance to return I statements; "When you say these
things is feel .....". Some just want to come here
a cause trouble, an I statement is not what they want to here. For others, it is a chance to see how the effect others.
Posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 13:54:38
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by stjames on February 23, 2003, at 2:35:31
I find it best not to respond at all most of the time; not to give certain people any more juice for whatever it is they're doing. And I guess you can call the uncivil uncivil--as long as you're civil about it--but it does get to be a bit sketchy as to who's calling what what sometimes.
Posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 16:16:45
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by stjames on February 23, 2003, at 2:35:31
...also, some people *are* tyrannical-- it doesnt seem like *calling* them tyrannical is uncivil. Would calling Hitler a tyrant be uncivil? I don't think so.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2003, at 16:50:10
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 16:16:45
kara lynne,
You wrote,[...would calling Hitler a tyrant be {uncivil}?]
It would depend on who the person was that called him a tyrant, or would it not?
Lou
Posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 19:16:12
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil? » kara lynne, posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2003, at 16:50:10
Well that may be a different issue. Both could be tyrants, I suppose-- it doesn't mean Hitler isn't a tyrant.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2003, at 19:21:09
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 19:16:12
KL,
Consider this: Would a person in Nazi Germany that called Hitler a tyrant , be uncivil, according to the Nazi athorities?
Now would a person in England durring that era be considerd uncivil by the English authorities if they called Hitler a tyrant?
Lou
Posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 19:32:25
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil? » kara lynne, posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2003, at 19:21:09
Lou,
I don't really understand where you're going with this, sorry. K.L.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2003, at 21:04:16
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 19:32:25
KL,
Well, I was trying to respond to your querry,[...to call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil...] and attempt to separate who was the one calling who as being uncivil. Uncivilness is relevant and , in a sense, [in the eye of the one that determines uncivilness.]. Now I do not understand where I am going with this either.
Best regards,
Lou
Posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 22:12:35
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil? » kara lynne, posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2003, at 21:04:16
Well, I think I see. Of course there would be those who would say Hitler was not a tyrant; in my opinion that would also make them tyrants. I don't think it does any good to argue with someone who is being uncivil, and I don't believe in attacking, but I don't think we should have to deny it, or sacrifice our own truth for politically correct style or em, psychobabble. And by nature of this design, politically correct here depends on someone else's interpretation or determination, and sometimes seems arbitrary or doesn't make sense. I guess we really have to keep our opinions about other posters to ourselves (or take them here) and leave the judgement calls to Dr.Bob. It would be chaos if this forum weren't monitored at all, and since it's Dr. Bob's baby, it's his to decide who is being uncivil and what uncivil is. That's tricky at times. There is also the element (that I think was pointed out somewhere else) of having to stucture around an approving or disapproving authority (dad, dr.bob) figure. Some of us didn't have great experiences with that, or authority figures who were fair (or civil), and projections enter in as well. In any event I would argue in favor of this site being up and open for business.
Posted by stjames on February 24, 2003, at 10:42:04
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 16:16:45
> ...also, some people *are* tyrannical-- it doesnt seem like *calling* them tyrannical is uncivil. Would calling Hitler a tyrant be uncivil? I don't think so.
Well is is not really up to you or me to deside what is or is not civil, is it. You and I singed and agreed to conditions when you started on this board. If we don't like them, we don't post.
It is Bob call on what is civil.
Posted by kara lynne on February 24, 2003, at 12:45:43
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by stjames on February 24, 2003, at 10:42:04
Posted by gabbix2 on February 27, 2003, at 16:55:35
In reply to To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by kara lynne on February 22, 2003, at 23:28:35
Posted by kara lynne on February 28, 2003, at 12:52:38
In reply to Re: To call the uncivil uncivil is uncivil?, posted by kara lynne on February 23, 2003, at 22:12:35
Posted by ayuda on March 23, 2003, at 11:25:43
In reply to Re: Shutting down the Babbles » shar, posted by Dinah on February 21, 2003, at 10:16:48
Dinah, I haven't read anyone else's response to your post, but I was perusing the thread concerning Dr. Bob's administration of this board and the use of blocking people, and as a researcher, I wanted to offer my opinion that perhaps stymies the average user of this board:
First of all, I think it was another post of yours in which you said you were looking at the message boards of a news site and you implied that the lack of moderation makes it difficult to bear. I have had the same problem, to where I've notified the FCC about some of those sites because of the filthy and hateful language that can be seen by anyone. You are right that Dr. Bob's civility standards make this a much more pleasant board.
To answer your question in this thread, though, Dr. Bob IS conducting research. It is counter-productive to the researcher when people just start name-calling and arguing. He is looking for specific information, and that information is obscured by incivility. He did not set up these boards so that people can verbally abuse others, he is looking at the psychology behind interactions of people who are supposedly under psychiatric care of some kind. If he wasn't conducting this research, my guess is that hosting a board like this would not be productive to his career, as it seems to take a lot of his time and patience just to moderate this board.
I am perplexed by those people who do not agree with Dr. Bob's moderation, and who submit posts criticizing him. They have the choice of just not reading this board ever again, and why they insist on being troublemakers instead is beyond me. Their meds may not be working! Or they are not on them, and may need to be. This is not a public forum, though people may think it is because it is on the Internet. It is really a private forum, we "sign" agreements to use this board according to Dr. Bob's rules, and anyone who ends up disagreeing with those rules just needs to un-bookmark this site from their browser.
In addition to moderating this site, Dr. Bob and his staff still need to evaluate every post for the research information they are seeking, which I always assumed was much more about medication and psychiatric care than about the administration of this site.
I commend Dr. Bob for conducting this kind of research, because it is the hardest to evaluate yet is probably going to be very helpful to the psychiatric community as a whole.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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