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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 5:55:12
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by comftnumb on December 25, 2002, at 23:43:22
> But for young smokers, a word of caution. Know that marijuana has been shown to increase your chance of getting schizophrenia by sixfold. That means you have a 6% chance of getting schizo compared to a 1% chance normally. Is that worth it? I don't know: although both percentages are small, 6% is a significant risk.Are you sure this is correct? That marijuana can increase your chance of becoming schizophrenic? Or does it simply increase your chance of showing symptoms of the illness earlier than it would have otherwise?
I would imagine that just about any drug--or food, for that matter--can trigger something latent within you. But as for marijuana causing schizophrenia--well, it's just something I'd never heard.
The first time I smoked pot was in the 7th grade. I spent much of 10th grade high, but the love affair faded. I probably smoke once a year, and that's only because I'm afraid I'll get anxious. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Anyway, just wanted to ask about that.
Cheers.
beardy : )>
Posted by rotem on December 26, 2002, at 6:35:11
In reply to I would stick to dopamine agonists! » Mr Cushing, posted by jimmygold70 on December 25, 2002, at 18:02:29
Hi
A year ago I correspond with you about SSRI and sexual dysfunction.
I haven't founf a solution yet. I am really desperate.
Can you recommend me pdoc that specializing in psychopharmacologic besides Prof Avi Weizman?
I would like to experience with dopamine agonists.I'll be glad if you can e-mail with me. my e-mail is: netaor@hotamil.co.il. Or talk with me on the phone
thanks
neta
Posted by ubergenius on December 26, 2002, at 9:28:21
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 5:55:12
Marijuana can influence the onset of several major mental illnesses including manic depression and schizophrenia.
UG
Posted by AnneL on December 26, 2002, at 9:50:40
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 5:55:12
Beardy,
If I had more time (I'am late for work), I would do the research for you. Although I do not have the exact statistics available to me at this very moment, at least two recent scientific journals came out with this study that statistically linked marijuana smoking (they did not quantify how much MJ was smoked) linked to triggering SZ. Do a Google or Medscape search and you will find the journal articles explaining the "trigger" effect with MJ usage for those who would eventually get SZ irrespective of MJ usage or not.
If one is going to get SZ, MJ will cause it to surface earlier in teens/young adults. SZ is a very disabling, devastating disease for both the patient and family. God forbid, SZ is not in the picture for my two teen daughters, but who knows? I think both patient and family would prefer as much time on this earth illness-free. Since mental illness/past drug use runs in our family for both my husband and myself, our teens are at a higher risk for eventually developing a mental illness. As parents who both have depression and one parent who also has had the privelege of sobriety, our message to our teens is that they are at higher risk and therefore to use chemicals is "russian roulette". We keep the message alive
and keep our communication open about our own illnesses and past drug use. After all is said and done, who knows what will happen? But the responsibility lies on the parent for informing their children without the use of "scare tactics" which never work anyway. Anne :)
Posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 10:24:48
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia » BeardedLady, posted by ubergenius on December 26, 2002, at 9:28:21
> Marijuana can INFLUENCE the ONSET of several major mental illnesses including manic depression and schizophrenia.
[caps my emphasis]
I really just wanted a clarification. You are still not saying it CAUSES these illnesses, correct? You are saying that it can have something to do with the start of something that will eventually start in you at a later date, without the help of marijuana. Is that correct? (I'm not trying to be difficult, really.)
Anne, this is for you, too. I think you used the word "trigger." (Sorry; I can't pull up your post without losing this one!)
I understand how smoking pot every day can take away one's ambition and speed and vigor and zest for life. That certainly sounds like depression, but, in this case, it's an expected side-effect of constant drug use, don't you think?
Who would be expected to handle life cheerfully and gracefully if he's spent most of his time high?
And then there's that chicken-egg thing. Did he use drugs because he was depressed and trying to self-medicate? Or did the constant drug use cause him to remain depressed once he was off the drugs for a long time?
Just wondering out loud, really. I know some folks who have smoked pot their whole lives. Some of them are inventors and artists and teachers with a great deal of drive and ambition. It's hard to say what causes what without isolating everything else--chemical, biological, environmental, situational, and dietary--about the person.
Okay, I'll stop now. Time to shut up, beardy.
beardy : )>
Posted by comftnumb on December 26, 2002, at 11:49:57
In reply to semantics: triggers v. causes--anne and » ubergenius, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 10:24:48
http://www.healthscout.com/static/news/510418.html
http://www.xpresssites.com/buffalo/buffalo/xpspecialsections/healthandwellness/story_318702.asp
Summary:
Smoking pot increases the risk of the psychiatric disorder by about 30 percent (1st article, Swedish study). There is genetic evidence that marijuana use can result in schizophrenia or a significantly increased risk of schizophrenia (2nd article, Japanese Study). Cannabis used before age 18 raises the risk of schizophrenia six-fold (2nd article, Swedish Study).
Posted by dreamerz on December 26, 2002, at 12:15:55
In reply to semantics: triggers v. causes--anne and » ubergenius, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 10:24:48
If I smoke a spliff (haven't done for years) I have a serious psychotic adventure..a friend who is schitzophrenic (sp?)had smoked for a long time--said it helped made things more real as she takes anti-psychotics --she has stopped smoking had a bad paranioa episode .
Don't think it causes it , just brings it more to the surface for some who have predisposition to mental illness
Posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 12:58:29
In reply to Beardedlady, 2 marijuana/schizo links for you, posted by comftnumb on December 26, 2002, at 11:49:57
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 26, 2002, at 13:04:40
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana? » Mr Cushing, posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 11:05:17
I don't know... I smoke maybe 3 out of the 7 days of the week. I never usually go for anymore than 3 consecutive days in a row smoking weed or hash. I almost always try to give my body 2 days off after those 3 days too to see if anything gets thrown off. In the past 5 months of doing this, I feel no different on the days of not-smoking. So it's obviously not throwing anything off inside of me. I personally feel the most healthy, physically, emotionally, and mentally than I have in my life.At a guess, I'd say I smoke at most about 4-7 grams a week. Sometimes just 2-4 though. Depends on what's going on that week. In the part of Canada that I live in, marijuana is a very social drug.
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 26, 2002, at 13:15:37
In reply to What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 9:04:44
See, just about everybody has different reactions to it. I have a friend that is suffering from some sort of psychosis (hears voices from the TV and radio) and if he smokes a spliff, watch out... Then I've seen people who have really bad panic attacks when they smoke weed. Everything starts moving too quickly for them, they start talking too fast, thoughts race through their heads, they start to get very paranoid, etc. Then I have other friends who smoke weed and will just lie there on the couch not moving to even shower or change, just every once in a while getting up to smoke another joint.For me, it makes everything more level. It always has. I've never had any bad side effects, going either too up or too down, from smoking weed. Plus, I absolutely love it. One of the most relaxing things for me to do is to sit down with a bag of stinky sticky weed and roll up a joint and smoke it.
I've asked both my PDoc and my MD about it and they've said that they themselves have never smoked weed so they couldn't say whether, personally, they'd be for it or against it. Neither have said anything about potentially drastic side effects. In fact, my MD (who is new here from Ireland) said that there's a ton of studies out there now on weed, about 50% for and 50% against. So I should just be my own doctor. If I find it causing problems with me, then stop smoking it.
That would by my advice to you also. It all depends on your body's chemistry. If it's screwing things up for you more than levelling things out, then stop smoking.
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 26, 2002, at 13:25:57
In reply to to jimmygold70, posted by rotem on December 26, 2002, at 6:35:11
Hi Rotem!
Well, I in the academics, and knowledge about psychopharmacology is poor in Israel. Weizman is not bad, and he does use dopamine agonists.
As for the problem itself - I am facing this too. A recent review (J Clin Psych, Feb 2002, S1) states that all ADs are likely to cause sexual dysfunction, BUT:
1) Serzonil does that far less often
2) Zyban (not in the health basket, 700NIS a month I guess) is even likely to improve sex drive.All the "shtikim" of adding dopamine agonists, Remeron, Sorbon, Tesolpamed Forte (yohimbine), Viagra and the like are UNLIKELY to help.
Also, sexual dysfunction is a symptom of depression. Even when the mood improves and anxiety goes away, sexual dysfunction sometimes stays.
Though, I really see Serzonil/Zyban as good options for you. Especially Zyban.
You might also have endocrine problems. How old are you ? Did you measure sex hormones in your blood ? Any disorders with Estradiol (E2), Progesterone and especially low Free/Bioavailable Testsoterone ruins sex drive.
I still prefer to chat on this forum...
Jimmy
> Hi
> A year ago I correspond with you about SSRI and sexual dysfunction.
> I haven't founf a solution yet. I am really desperate.
> Can you recommend me pdoc that specializing in psychopharmacologic besides Prof Avi Weizman?
> I would like to experience with dopamine agonists.
>
> I'll be glad if you can e-mail with me. my e-mail is: netaor@hotamil.co.il. Or talk with me on the phone
>
> thanks
> neta
>
>
Posted by rotem on December 26, 2002, at 13:56:17
In reply to Re: to jimmygold70 » rotem, posted by jimmygold70 on December 26, 2002, at 13:25:57
Thanks for your answer
My sexual dysfunction in my case is not a symptom of depression.
I didn’t take any antidepressants for 6 months and I had good sex. Unfortunately the depression came back. Still I had good sex, but very suffered mentally, so I had to go back to prozac.
I am 32 female and my sex hormones are all ok.
I have a depression that is mixed with restlessness agitation and sort of anxiety so I am afraid to take zyban cause when I tried adronex it was awful and weizmna said I am not suit to things that increase the noradrenalin.
I tried serzonil and it was awful.I don’t like weizman cause he sits with me 20 minutes and take 700Nis
Can you recommend me someone good as Weizman in the knowledge in psychopharmacology but who sits more time and more devoting himself?
I want someone who will escort me while I am trying dopmine agonists because I am afraid they will aggravate my reslessness or make me confuse.Alse I would like to ask what is your opinion about ssri deplete dopamine? Wiezman say ssri don’t deplete dopmine.
Posted by john7219 on December 26, 2002, at 14:50:34
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana? » JonW, posted by Mr Cushing on December 26, 2002, at 13:04:40
So you live in Vancouver, eh?
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 26, 2002, at 17:33:37
In reply to Re: to jimmygold70, posted by rotem on December 26, 2002, at 13:56:17
> Thanks for your answer
> My sexual dysfunction in my case is not a symptom of depression.
> I didn’t take any antidepressants for 6 months and I had good sex. Unfortunately the depression came back. Still I had good sex, but very suffered mentally, so I had to go back to prozac.
> I am 32 female and my sex hormones are all ok.
> I have a depression that is mixed with restlessness agitation and sort of anxiety so I am afraid to take zyban cause when I tried adronex it was awful and weizmna said I am not suit to things that increase the noradrenalin.I tried Edronax, it was worse than anything I could imagine. Zyban is good. I had that for about a year with no side effects. It's worth a try. Edronax is aweul for itself, it's not Noradrenaline per se. It effects peripheral noradrenergic receptors and that does so many side effects...
> I tried serzonil and it was awful.
Ye I did try it for some time and it was. I'm now trying it again at a higher dose and it seems better.
> I don’t like weizman cause he sits with me 20 minutes and take 700NisThat's a well known problem with him. He is the most knwoledgable I know. We enjoy having long psychopharmacology talks and the guy remembers all top journal citations 2 years back. I consider myself good at that but he overtakes me (-:
> Can you recommend me someone good as Weizman in the knowledge in psychopharmacology but who sits more time and more devoting himself?
I think Dr. Shaul Schreiber from Ichilov (now the psychiatric department manager) is OK. I talked to him once or twice, he's nice and seems to know quite a bit.
> I want someone who will escort me while I am trying dopmine agonists because I am afraid they will aggravate my reslessness or make me confuse.
I guess so. Try Zyban first (family physician, you know) before wasting money on anyone else... Don't touch them until you've tried Zyban for 3 months or so. You have nothing to worry. It is VERY well tolerated.
> Alse I would like to ask what is your opinion about ssri deplete dopamine? Wiezman say ssri don’t deplete dopmine.
I guess he is right, but that doesn't suggest that SSRIs don't cause some numbing which comes from stimulating 5-HT2 receptors which in turn down regulates some dopamine receptors at the same areas of the brain. The brain is more complicated than "increases dopamine, depletes dopamine"... It depends where, at what receptors and to what extent (-:
Report back anyway, I'm eager to hear...
Jimmy
Posted by Dave1 on December 26, 2002, at 20:30:25
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by Mr Cushing on December 25, 2002, at 10:54:41
I get really paranoid when I've tried it That's good enough reason for me not to do it. I think this is a common occurence in patients with high anxiety.
BYE,
Dave
Posted by Phil on December 26, 2002, at 22:22:12
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by Dave1 on December 26, 2002, at 20:30:25
Posted by Mr.Scott on December 26, 2002, at 23:32:28
In reply to What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 9:04:44
If often wish it was helpful for me... It would be so easy and probably safer than 75% of the psychiatric drugs out there...
I have been watching people smoke pot regularly for 15 years without ill effect. Some of them are quite successfull in there own right. It just doesn't jive with my system otherwise I'd be all over it...
Posted by Caleb462 on December 28, 2002, at 0:47:17
In reply to What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 9:04:44
I haven't really been paying attention to this thread, but I'll just say that for me, marijuana triggers anxiety rather than relieving it. Which is not to say I don't enjoy marijuana. Aesthetically, intellectually and emotionally, it CAN be a fun and rewarding substance. However, stress relief? No way, not for me. As an example, the only panic attack I've ever had was after smoking pot.
Posted by rotem on December 28, 2002, at 5:45:10
In reply to Re: to jimmygold70 » rotem, posted by jimmygold70 on December 26, 2002, at 17:33:37
Thank you very much jimmy
I want to make clear what kind of pdoc I'm looking for in the
hope you know about someone like that, or maybe even Dr. Schreiber fits this
expanded description.1. Knowledgeable in psychopharmacology as much as Weizman, with a biological orientations, not a psychotherapy orientation. I don't want him to try psychotherapy on me, but to concentrate on the biology, because I'm seeing a psychologist for the psychotherapy.
2.Have intuition and can diagnose, so he can fit the medicine to my psych (be a good "interface" between me and the medicines). Someone who knows the fine fine distinctions of depression, and not generalize: "depression, anxiety, a little obsessive, so take SSRI". and that's it because the leading theory today links this to Serotonin. I want someone who can, for example, diagnose if my condition is appropriate for dopaminergics (such as mirapex, Amineptine bromocriptine amantadine minaprine Permax pramipexole Cabergoline ,Ropinirole amisulpride etc') or not, and save me a painful experience if not.
3. Someone with A LOT of patience, who will sit with me for an hour (not 20 minutes..), and I can ask questions in psychopharmacology and get answers, not patronizing "you don't need to understand pharmacology" or "your need to understand pharmacology shows you have OCD" (which is partly true, but still i think legitimate).
4. With an open mind. Someone who is prepared to commit himself to help me find a solution, even if the medicines are not available in Israel (for example mirapex). Unlike Weizman, who is "small head"- if the medicine isn't available in Israel, ignores it.
Of course, the psychiatrist needs to know about the medicines, even if he hasn't experience in using them in Israel. I also want him to be able to help me import them, for example sign form 29c.5. I'm sensitive to medicines and reacts very strongly even at low dosages. So I need the pdoc to take me seriously and to consider if my reactions justify stopping, or the medicine is still the most suitable.
(for example he would also explain to me why this happens from a pharmacological view and not say I'm histrionic).
Unlike one psychiatrist who told me that if I don't take a reasonable dosage for a long time he doesn't want to work with me. I understand the logic rational for this attitude, but there is a limit to my ability to suffer, and the pdoc should differentiate between reasonable reaction and unreasonably harsh response.
Unfortunately I've been to 2 psychiatrist privately who behaved like in "Kupat Holim", with stock answers and "small head".Hope you didnt lost in my long description...
Thanks for your help
eager to hear your responseNeta
Posted by worrier on December 28, 2002, at 17:04:12
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by Caleb462 on December 28, 2002, at 0:47:17
> I haven't really been paying attention to this thread, but I'll just say that for me, marijuana triggers anxiety rather than relieving it. Which is not to say I don't enjoy marijuana. Aesthetically, intellectually and emotionally, it CAN be a fun and rewarding substance. However, stress relief? No way, not for me. As an example, the only panic attack I've ever had was after smoking pot.
>Everyone responds differently to any substance...for me marijuana use to be a great relaxant. It relieved stress and anxiety,etc. But a few years ago it became the major trigger of my panic attacks and really intensified them as well. I've pretty much had to give it up entirely. I find that disappointing, as I personally think it's alot safer than most of the stuff our docs give us.
Posted by rotem on December 29, 2002, at 13:43:59
In reply to to jimmygold70- characterizing psychiatrists, posted by rotem on December 29, 2002, at 11:10:26
continuation....
especially I don't want a pdoc, who every side-effect I report him, dismiss me as only anxiety or suggestibility.
For example I have a heat and aunt-like senstation in my legs from prozac. the pdoc I want will acknowledge it is from the prozac and not "my imagination", as a I am 100% sure it is from it. Cause each time I stopped the prozac, it went away.So it's a matter of:
1. knowlegde of all kind of possible side-effects, even rare one, even ones who haven't been reported by other people.
2. respect to the patient
Posted by rotem on December 29, 2002, at 13:58:17
In reply to to jimmygold70- characterizing psychiatrists, posted by rotem on December 29, 2002, at 11:10:26
continuation....
especially I don't want a pdoc, who every side-effect I report him, dismiss me as only anxiety or suggestibility.
For example I have a heat and aunt-like senstation in my legs from prozac. the pdoc I want will acknowledge it is from the prozac and not "my imagination", as a I am 100% sure it is from it. Cause each time I stopped the prozac, it went away.So it's a matter of:
1. knowlegde of all kind of possible side-effects, even rare one, even ones who haven't been reported by other people.
2. respect to the patient
Posted by Michael D on December 29, 2002, at 21:33:33
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by comftnumb on December 25, 2002, at 23:43:22
> I started smoking pot in October 2001, and more heavily in November. My brother found me at school in a stupor, and he took me home to settle down. I ended up staying psychotic with plenty of delusions.
How much were you smoking. Some have suggested that psychosis might be because of high doses of marijuana. Marijuana could be like any other drug. Too much of a good thing...
Michael D
Posted by Michael D on December 29, 2002, at 21:40:09
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 5:55:12
> Are you sure this is correct? That marijuana can increase your chance of becoming schizophrenic?People who have smoked pot have a six fold increase in their rates of schizophrenia. The question "What came first, the chicken or the egg, is still in the air..."
Michael D
Posted by oracle on December 29, 2002, at 23:18:12
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by comftnumb on December 25, 2002, at 23:43:22
I highly doubt it. Most psychotic breaks happen
in ones 20's and many start smoking pot then.
Also smoking pot can be seen as a coping skill
to having/starting schizophrenia.Really reaching here, one could say being 20 something caused their schizophrenia, if one was to confuse cause and effect.
Given the HUGE number of people who smoke pot, and have for centuries, we should have seen a
causal relationship here. People do drugs to ease
the suffering of schizophrenia.
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