![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1397 to 1421 of 8406. Go back in thread:
Posted by Mr.Scott on November 25, 2002, at 20:26:07
In reply to Re: Fiery Rhetoric/bottom » Mr.Scott, posted by pharmrep on November 25, 2002, at 2:27:13
I don't know you. Therefore I cannot comment on you specifically. Besides it wouldn't be appropriate to be directly antagonistic on this venue anyways.
My goal here is to provide patients like myself with a sense of enlightenment having had 12 years of pertinent experience as a patient and 4 years being employed in the pharmaceutical industry. Patients receiving care whether it is meds or therapy should be aware that ultimately they have control over how they are treated. Patients or consumers of mental healthcare need to be extremely well informed and vigilant to ensure they receive top shelf care and attention whether it is addressing side-effects, covering particular issues in therapy, or whatever. My hostility as it may come across comes from having repeatedly dealt with professionals who had agendas in mind other than my needs. Not only did I suffer, but I got worse and stuck with the bill. The current mental health system demands self empowerment and education perhaps like few other things do.
I apologize if my saltiness offended you, but be reassured that my role in pharma is very much akin to yours.
Scott
Posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:35:39
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 19:55:14
> I'm not sure if you have actually gone there,
> so here is the link of some "credible" reports;
> for government reports the Canadian and British
> sites have more House of Commons debates.
> I think that anyone is free to take any
> drug they like as long as it is legal.
> However, these drugs can give you a very
> surprising cluster of effects after taking
> them for a long time. Perhaps that is worth
> reporting to the public. And once something
> is read, the person can take the information
> or leave it -- just as they can take the information
> you present on ABOUT or leave it, or any other
> place for that matter on the net. Education
> along with your doctor's advice and your own
> experience, may assist in making a rational
> decision about what is and is not the case.
>
> Squiggles
================================================I've been there, conversed with Ray, Rand and others associated with the site. I still see no credible scientific evidence to the broad sweeping claims that seem terribly tabloid.
"Can", "possibly", "perhaps", "tend to", etc appear more often than not and simply can not be considered as evidence that there is somthing inherently evil about bzds - equating them more often than not carelessly with narcotics and other illicit drugs...the implication being clear:
If you're taking these drugs full time, you are already similar if not equated with being a "drug addict".Misleading and poppycock.
Anecdotal evidence or personal experience is neither scientific or helpfully informative unless it is placed in context and perspective. Unfortunately, the average joe that visits a site such as this is unaware of this other half of the truth. There may be cases of those truly hurt by the drug somewhere in the site if one digs deep enough, but cluttered with so much hyperbole, how is the average person going to ferret those supposedly helful and informative cases out?
The Canadian political debate is just that. Political.
With sites such as these, I don't see any meaningful benefit from fanning flames of perhaps's and maybes' in assessing cost/benefit ratios to the already med phobic anxiety sufferer.
I personally very happy that mine and most other HCP's don't consult sites such as this for *COMPREHENSIVE* information.
More rational and contextual dialogue seems to be contained in comprehensive oversight reports by prestigious assemblages in the least commercially and politically motivated groups such as the World Health Organisation and similar bodies.
What else can be said?
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 20:36:41
In reply to Re: Fiery Rhetoric/bottom » pharmrep, posted by Mr.Scott on November 25, 2002, at 20:26:07
I think there are two issues here
and they should be kept apart. They
should be kept apart for a very good
reason; if they become causally linked
the accusation of responsibility comes up.If that happens, the result is that the
"pharm rep" will blame the doctors, and
if it is the doctor speaking, will blame
the "pharms", and if is the "user" like
me, well, i'll just be undulating back
and forth ad infinitum, not really knowing
who is wrong or right.So, issue one: Drugs and their side effects
regardless of the variability of prescription
and assuming they are prescribed as advised
by the pharms;Issue two: the doctors and how they handle
the drugs; they may follow the advise to the
letter or not.But to speak of these two issues en masse without
statistical backing, is really an invalid
way of arguing.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:39:37
In reply to Re: Fiery Rhetoric/bottom » pharmrep, posted by Mr.Scott on November 25, 2002, at 20:26:07
Posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 20:47:17
In reply to Re: BZD.org » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:35:39
Well then you have not seen the articles
under "Doctors and Experts" - click on that
and you will see the papers by Dr. Ashton,
and other doctors - those are medical reports
not the forums.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:54:03
In reply to Re: Fiery Rhetoric/bottom » Mr.Scott, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 20:36:41
> I think there are two issues here
> and they should be kept apart. They
> should be kept apart for a very good
> reason; if they become causally linked
> the accusation of responsibility comes up.
>
> If that happens, the result is that the
> "pharm rep" will blame the doctors, and
> if it is the doctor speaking, will blame
> the "pharms", and if is the "user" like
> me, well, i'll just be undulating back
> and forth ad infinitum, not really knowing
> who is wrong or right.
>
> Squiggles
==============================================This IS the one problem that I do have with a pharmrep "getting back to us" about what their docs tell them, etc. There is a disconnect and lack of oversight that is kind of like "I'll go see what the manager says about your offer" when dealing with a car dealership (no offense intended - respectfully, it's that kind of SYSTEM that troubles me, not something personally speaking about a pharmrep).
That "disconnect" or middleman approach is what can lead to mistrust of information that otherwise may perhaps be useful.
To ask those of us that have been through the wringer about this issue, the "trust me" would feel like it came up a little short...simply based on a mistrust of the commercially driven aspects of the industry that have directly effected us and that which we read about so often.
Alan
Posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:58:06
In reply to Re: BZD.org » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 20:47:17
> Well then you have not seen the articles
> under "Doctors and Experts" - click on that
> and you will see the papers by Dr. Ashton,
> and other doctors - those are medical reports
> not the forums.
>
> Squiggles
==========================================I certainly have...and been an observer of their content. All of this has been addressed in my latest post about proportion, context, and other observations in other posts about Ashton et all.
Alan
Posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:09:48
In reply to Re: PoppyCock! » pharmrep, posted by Mr.Scott on November 25, 2002, at 18:59:49
> Oh it's delicious...No doubt!
You are pure evil. All I've been thinking about since your last post on this subject is caramel popcorn, except that 'tis the season for tri-flavor popcorn tins, and then I got to thinking about the cheese popcorn. But I was still okay, until I realized that even the buttered popcorn in those tins are good, and especially when mixed with the cheese popcorn.
So now I am munching on a tin-full of flavored popcorn, thanks to you. I hope all the calories go to your thighs instead of mine.
Posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 21:10:47
In reply to Re: BZD.org » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:58:06
I must have been away while you were
doing your research. Are there posts
on Dr. Bob's about these articles and
how they were evaluated by you or others;I confess that while i was at Benzoland,
some things seemed secret, and the hierarchy
of the moderators something that not all
the commoners had access to; but that was
my impression. One person has totally
disappeared; he was a lawyer and a moderator
and the person with whom i wrote the FAQ;
I wonder if he died - sincerely, there was
a report of a death of a Scientologist around
the time he disappeared.It's a bit cloak and dagger and that has
shed suspicion on the very crucial aspect
of the group -- the nature of the benzos and
their effects -- this is not a good thing, as
there is good evidence to support the fact that
they are addictive.But when i recently saw Ray Nimmo's photograph
in the papers and his lawyer's report, and the
various reviews in "The Guardian", i thought
i must be wrong about a lot of things.Still, if you ever saw the Google posts i sent
(converstations with Ian at alt.support.anxiety.panic),
you will see that he made some very dark and
mysterious accusations about identities of people
and motives.The whole thing seems like a mystery film and i have not
come to the ending yet.Squiggles
Posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:19:19
In reply to Re: PoppyCock! » Mr.Scott, posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:09:48
> > Oh it's delicious...No doubt!
>
> You are pure evil. All I've been thinking about since your last post on this subject is caramel popcorn, except that 'tis the season for tri-flavor popcorn tins, and then I got to thinking about the cheese popcorn. But I was still okay, until I realized that even the buttered popcorn in those tins are good, and especially when mixed with the cheese popcorn.
>
> So now I am munching on a tin-full of flavored popcorn, thanks to you. I hope all the calories go to your thighs instead of mine.
>
>
I meant to implicate you, Mr. Scott, and pharm rep, by the way -- neither of you are blameless as I sit here getting cheese powder all over my keyboard.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2002, at 21:21:45
In reply to Re: PoppyCock! » Mr.Scott, posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:09:48
> All I've been thinking about since your last post on this subject is caramel popcorn, except that 'tis the season for tri-flavor popcorn tins, and then I got to thinking about the cheese popcorn.
Posts that don't focus on medication should be redirected to another board; otherwise, they may be deleted. Thanks,
Bob
PS: In particular, posts regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2002, at 21:46:00
In reply to Re: let's focus on medication here, posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2002, at 21:21:45
> PS: In particular, posts regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/8312.html
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2002, at 21:56:14
In reply to Re: Fiery Rhetoric » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 10:37:09
> PoppyCock!
>
> Mr.ScottPlease respect the views of others (even if you think they're wrong), be sensitive to their feelings, and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
> There's a representative from the pharmaceutical
> companies here? And he is taking notes?
> Who is he, let me at him..... grrrrrrrrrrrr!
>
> SquigglesPlease also be supportive -- or just keep your reaction to yourself.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Phyl on November 26, 2002, at 6:31:58
In reply to Anyone switched to Lexapro? « ggrrl, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2002, at 7:52:48
It seems that if I take Lexapro in the morning, I can sleep pretty well at night. But if I take it in the late afternoon,I have difficulty falling asleep and need to take a Lorezepam to help me. Does it really make a difference what time you take the med? When I remember to take it in the morning, my energy level is fine. Could it be that taking it at the end of the day, the energy thing kicks in and that is what is keeping me awake? Or is it just some odd coincidence?
Posted by new user2 on November 26, 2002, at 6:32:53
In reply to Re: PoppyCock! » ayuda, posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:19:19
I have been on Lexapro for 7 days for anxiety disorder (panic attacks). So far I have increased anxiety and feel almost hyperactive. Will this anxiety s/e evenually disappear as I continue with the medication?
Posted by Rich B on November 26, 2002, at 7:26:52
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 19:55:14
OK, When I started this thread, somebody got off the subject right away and it turned into some heated debate. So, I am going to repost my previous message to see if I actually get responces that are relevant.
I have been on Lexapro for 5 days (including today) for Anxiety. So far, it has done nothing for the anxiety. If anything, it has made it worse. I grind my teeth allot and when I am working on something, I do it very intensely and the anxiety is even worse than it was before. When I am not doing much, am often tired. The tiredness is on and off and I get very tired early in the evening. I have not had insomnia, but when I get up at night to go to the bathroom, I have a hard time getting back to sleep. I have dry mouth and this very light constant headache in the back of my head. This is caused by a tightness in my neck and the back of my head that I believe Lexepro is causing. Can anyone shed some light on my situation? I know I need to give it more time, and I plan on it, but so far, it doesn’t look to good. I am trying to work on my anxiety problem (GAD) through therapy and I was hoping this medication would help bring me down a little and relax. Its hard to work on when the physical systems act as this counterproductive force holding me back.
Thanks in advance.
Rich
Posted by syringachalet on November 26, 2002, at 7:32:13
In reply to Re: wow...amen to alan on this , posted by pharmrep on November 25, 2002, at 10:43:34
Can a nurse and someone who has personal lived with the positive and negative side effects of twenty years of psychoactive medication have a moment at the microphone.....?
I have seen in my 20 years of nursing psychotrophic medications evolve from those that simply snowed the patient and never really helped resolve the issues that inititally caused the need for the meds to today when in many of the clients I see are able to function in the community at a level that their familys and long time friends never thought would exist. I have even had one mother tell me that her'son had come back from the dead and anything he could do for himself for a happier life was just fine with her'.
As a consumer, I too have seen psych meds make lighting speed strides in assisting clients and their families to have so much better lives.
The cleints who could have developed TD and all the medical issues that associate with it had almost evaporated.
For some, their being able to just remain out of custodial care has save our local state agencies thousands of dollars per client every year.
When I have a psych doc ask me if I think that the meds for John or Mary are working and do we need to reassess, I consider not only the input of the clients family/significant others, but I espeically ask the client if she/he feels differently on one med vs another..no judgement/bias..and in terms of their ability to function in the ADLs.My concern with any new med that comes out, regardless the reason it was prescribed, is how does it positively/negatively impact the clients daily life.
One old MD told me once that mental illness is much like a skin rash...you inititally treat the symptoms to give the patient some relief and if youre lucky you find out what caused it to occur and help the patient avoid its reoccurance....
Thanks. syringachalet
Posted by Geezer on November 26, 2002, at 8:51:01
In reply to Re: wow...amen to alan on this , posted by syringachalet on November 26, 2002, at 7:32:13
> Can a nurse and someone who has personal lived with the positive and negative side effects of twenty years of psychoactive medication have a moment at the microphone.....?
>
> I have seen in my 20 years of nursing psychotrophic medications evolve from those that simply snowed the patient and never really helped resolve the issues that inititally caused the need for the meds to today when in many of the clients I see are able to function in the community at a level that their familys and long time friends never thought would exist. I have even had one mother tell me that her'son had come back from the dead and anything he could do for himself for a happier life was just fine with her'.
> As a consumer, I too have seen psych meds make lighting speed strides in assisting clients and their families to have so much better lives.
> The cleints who could have developed TD and all the medical issues that associate with it had almost evaporated.
> For some, their being able to just remain out of custodial care has save our local state agencies thousands of dollars per client every year.
>
>
> When I have a psych doc ask me if I think that the meds for John or Mary are working and do we need to reassess, I consider not only the input of the clients family/significant others, but I espeically ask the client if she/he feels differently on one med vs another..no judgement/bias..and in terms of their ability to function in the ADLs.
>
> My concern with any new med that comes out, regardless the reason it was prescribed, is how does it positively/negatively impact the clients daily life.
>
> One old MD told me once that mental illness is much like a skin rash...you inititally treat the symptoms to give the patient some relief and if youre lucky you find out what caused it to occur and help the patient avoid its reoccurance....
>
>
> Thanks. syringachaletHi syringachalet,
Very nicely worded piece containing a great deal of truth for the fortunate 70%. Do you think there will ever be any attention given to developing efficacious medications for the rest of us? I have been at it for more than 30 years (have had brief periods of relief...18 mos. on Prozac) currently completeling an ECT series and taking 30mg of Parnate-not doing real well.
I would take isssue with only one comment in your post "the comment from the old MD.....treating the symptoms-then avoiding the reoccurance...". For many of us 30%'ers the illness is genetic, after a certain number of episodes the reoccurances become spontanious.....no trigger needed. For us the psych-social approach is a waste of time and splitting SSRI isomeres doesn't seem to help much either. Sorry to sound negative, just wanted to say there are some of us still waiting.
Geezer
Posted by dr. dave on November 26, 2002, at 9:05:33
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects, posted by Rich B on November 26, 2002, at 7:26:52
> OK, When I started this thread, somebody got off the subject right away and it turned into some heated debate. So, I am going to repost my previous message to see if I actually get responces that are relevant.
>
>
> I have been on Lexapro for 5 days (including today) for Anxiety. So far, it has done nothing for the anxiety. If anything, it has made it worse. I grind my teeth allot and when I am working on something, I do it very intensely and the anxiety is even worse than it was before. When I am not doing much, am often tired. The tiredness is on and off and I get very tired early in the evening. I have not had insomnia, but when I get up at night to go to the bathroom, I have a hard time getting back to sleep. I have dry mouth and this very light constant headache in the back of my head. This is caused by a tightness in my neck and the back of my head that I believe Lexepro is causing. Can anyone shed some light on my situation? I know I need to give it more time, and I plan on it, but so far, it doesn’t look to good. I am trying to work on my anxiety problem (GAD) through therapy and I was hoping this medication would help bring me down a little and relax. Its hard to work on when the physical systems act as this counterproductive force holding me back.
> Thanks in advance.
> RichHere are some thoughts, which should not be taken as definitive.
SSRIs in general can cause an initial increase in anxiety and tension. This is a very tiring state to remain in for any length of time - your muscles are tensed up all the time - so it leaves you feeling exhausted even if you haven't been doing much. Dry mouth can be caused by anxiety, and muscle tension in your neck and scalp can give headaches.
So all the symptoms can be accounted for by an increase in anxiety due to starting an SSRI. The good news is this is likely to wear off in a week or two and you may begin to feel a lot better. It's just a question of waiting and seeing, but it may be worth giving it six weeks before making a judgement as to whether it helps or not.
Posted by wharfrat on November 26, 2002, at 9:26:28
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects » Rich B, posted by dr. dave on November 26, 2002, at 9:05:33
Rich,
It's not uncommon to feel that you've been ignored on this board. I'm suprised Dr. Bob did'nt request a redirect on that "Fiery Rhetoric"
Anyway, back to you. 5 days on lexapro and your feeling exactly like I did, dull headaches, clenched jaw, trippy feeling. Don't worry, that should all go away after a couple of weeks. It did with me anyway. I never have been on an antidee before, but I was determined to go thru whatever it took to try and get better(by the way I've been on it for 8 weeks now and feeling better than I can remember ever feeling). I don't remember if you said this is your first experience with anti's or not, but hang in there. There are some other SSRI's that I've seen on this board that I believe (though I've never been on them), that the side effects sound hellacious compared to Lexapro. So good luck and keep posting.
Regards,
Wharf
Posted by iomasters on November 26, 2002, at 10:05:35
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Rich B, posted by wharfrat on November 26, 2002, at 9:26:28
> Rich,
> It's not uncommon to feel that you've been ignored on this board. I'm suprised Dr. Bob did'nt request a redirect on that "Fiery Rhetoric"
> Anyway, back to you. 5 days on lexapro and your feeling exactly like I did, dull headaches, clenched jaw, trippy feeling. Don't worry, that should all go away after a couple of weeks. It did with me anyway. I never have been on an antidee before, but I was determined to go thru whatever it took to try and get better(by the way I've been on it for 8 weeks now and feeling better than I can remember ever feeling). I don't remember if you said this is your first experience with anti's or not, but hang in there. There are some other SSRI's that I've seen on this board that I believe (though I've never been on them), that the side effects sound hellacious compared to Lexapro. So good luck and keep posting.
> Regards,
> Wharf
Rich and Wharf,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have been on Lexapro for 3 days now (today included), and every day I have said that I'm not going to take it the next.
But, I am 'desperate' to overcome the feelings I had before I started.I have had the EXACT same side effects that you described. I really don't like the 'antsy' feeling I have all day, but I am hoping that
-with time- it will subside. Thanks for writing. It has encouraged me to hang in there.Rich, please keep me posting as the side effects fade ;)
iomasters
Posted by new user2 on November 26, 2002, at 11:33:22
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Rich B » wharfrat, posted by iomasters on November 26, 2002, at 10:05:35
Just wondering if anyone experienced sensitivity to bright lights during the first week of taking lexapro. Any info would be helpful.
Thank you!
Posted by markmn on November 26, 2002, at 13:39:11
In reply to Re: Forest » Mr.Scott, posted by maririp on October 10, 2002, at 7:31:03
Hi all,
I've been on Lexapro(10mg)(10mg 5 in the morning and 5 with dinner)for about two and a half weeks now. Problem is that for about a 4 or 5 hour period in the middle of the day my brain is so foggy. My eyes feel super heavy and I don't feel with it. Is my dosage to high on the Lex, my doctor started me at 10, not the usual 5? Should I just take it at night? I've also been weening myself off of Paxil (15mg). I'm currently at 5mg. I know this could all be withdrawal, but have any of you had this s/e starting Lexapro?
-markmn
Posted by mills on November 26, 2002, at 13:47:28
In reply to Anyone else foggy on Lexapro?, posted by markmn on November 26, 2002, at 13:39:11
foggy is not the word for it; more like demented, but i'm on 30 mg, and it is worse in the morning (I take at night) and subsides 'somewhat' by the end of the day; i went through a similar thing with paxil and one day realized it was gone, but it was hard as hell riding it out, but i was very very glad i did; i can only hope the same thing happens with lexapro because it is very unsettling
> Hi all,
>
> I've been on Lexapro(10mg)(10mg 5 in the morning and 5 with dinner)for about two and a half weeks now. Problem is that for about a 4 or 5 hour period in the middle of the day my brain is so foggy. My eyes feel super heavy and I don't feel with it. Is my dosage to high on the Lex, my doctor started me at 10, not the usual 5? Should I just take it at night? I've also been weening myself off of Paxil (15mg). I'm currently at 5mg. I know this could all be withdrawal, but have any of you had this s/e starting Lexapro?
> -markmn
Posted by Alan on November 26, 2002, at 14:45:37
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects, posted by Rich B on November 26, 2002, at 7:26:52
> OK, When I started this thread, somebody got off the subject right away and it turned into some heated debate. So, I am going to repost my previous message to see if I actually get responces that are relevant.
>
>
> I have been on Lexapro for 5 days (including today) for Anxiety. So far, it has done nothing for the anxiety. If anything, it has made it worse. I grind my teeth allot and when I am working on something, I do it very intensely and the anxiety is even worse than it was before. When I am not doing much, am often tired. The tiredness is on and off and I get very tired early in the evening. I have not had insomnia, but when I get up at night to go to the bathroom, I have a hard time getting back to sleep. I have dry mouth and this very light constant headache in the back of my head. This is caused by a tightness in my neck and the back of my head that I believe Lexepro is causing. Can anyone shed some light on my situation? I know I need to give it more time, and I plan on it, but so far, it doesn’t look to good. I am trying to work on my anxiety problem (GAD) through therapy and I was hoping this medication would help bring me down a little and relax. Its hard to work on when the physical systems act as this counterproductive force holding me back.
> Thanks in advance.
> Rich
===========================================
I think I responded directly after you posted:Many docs include a "start - up" benzo like ativan or xanax to counteract the start-up side effects of AD's - increased anxiety, etc....especially when you are doing this very important "head" work with a psychologist or other type of therapy.
Has your doctor offered you bzd monotherapy on an equal footing with the AD - considering your DX?
If not, why not?
Alan
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