![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 78 to 102 of 8406. Go back in thread:
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 0:06:06
In reply to Re: Lexapro is no different from Celexa, posted by Patson on August 19, 2002, at 23:10:54
> I might guess that you sound an awful lot like a friend of mine who is a glaxo rep.... He's been telling me the same thing....
>
> > The Danish Institute for Rational Pharmacotherapy has reviewed all of the available data comparing Lexapro and Celexa and has concluded there is no convincing evidence for any difference in tolerability, efficacy, or anything else. This is the only other independent review of the data apart from Micromedex I am aware of. It is only those linked with the manufacturers of Lexapro that are talking it up, and the only two independent reviews come to the same conclusion - there is no real difference. The story is on the Reuters news website.
> >
> >
> ** I have never seen so much hype. I dont know what the Danes are looking at. There are 9 studies so far, and every one shows Lexapro at an advantage. There are more studies on the way...most new drugs only look at placebo, but Lex did head to head right away...do you really think Forest would hang its hat on a drug 3 years before a proven winner (Celexa) if it wasnt better?
PS your Glaxo rep just went through what your describing...paxil cr is the same molecule as paxil...only a lower dose, and different delivery...but the same drug---exactly the same (and passed FDA 3 years ago, but was only released this year..when 1st paxil expires..hows that for patent beat!)..Lexapro is not the same as Celexa... stop the hype and read the studies on your own before making an "informed" decision for yourself.
Posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 5:21:03
In reply to Re: Lexapro is different » Patson, posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 0:06:06
'Celexa' 20mg is 10mg s-isomer and 10 mg r-isomer. The r-isomer is effectively inert as an SSRI or anything else. Celexa only works because of the 10mg s-isomer in it. 'Lexapro' is the 10mg s-isomer on its own. It's pretty hard and expensive to produce separately, and it's a funny thing to do when the r-isomer has virtually no pharmacological action at all.
Lexapro 10mg is Celexa 20mg with 10 mg of an inert substance expensively removed.
Posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 5:31:12
In reply to How do you act on that information? » dr. dave, posted by Anyuser on August 19, 2002, at 11:12:18
I am a practicing psychiatrist and I prescribe Celexa widely. I have a responsibility not to prescribe everything that is claimed to be new and improved until I have some decent scientific information to justify changing from using drugs that I am familiar with.
It is true that Zoloft is more effective than Paxil for some people (as an example), and we don't know why, but we can fairly safely say that it is because they are different drugs which work slightly differently. My puzzlement about claims that Lexapro works better than Celexa are founded on the fact that the active element is the exact same molecule, atom for atom.
The financial issue is relevant as there will always be some limit on the funds available for treating mental disorder. I think that as much benefit should be obtained from those resources as possible. I don't think we can afford to waste money. Paying significantly more for a drug on the basis that the manufacturers think it is better is not justifiable unless there is decent evidence to back that claim up. To date that evidence does not exist.
Posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 5:48:24
In reply to Re: Lexapro is different » Patson, posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 0:06:06
I'm sure you believe Lexapro is different, pharmrep, but can't you see that you might not be in a position to make the most balanced of judgements on the evidence? It is not really convincing to try to persuade people it is different just by insisting that it is.
Turning to the isomer science, why are there no plausible theories at all as to how removing r-citalopram could increase speed of onset and efficacy? We know it doesn't affect the pharmacokinetics of s-citalopram and we know that it has about 1/30th the affinity for the serotonin reuptake transporter of s-citalopram so it can't be competing at the binding site. It really is inert. Lundbeck, who developed the drug, still had no theory to back up the claim that r-citalopram impedes s-citalopram's activity when I last spoke to them. Does Forrest?
I would be more than happy to discuss the deficiencies in the published papers if you wish. Independent reviews of the evidence wouldn't both come to the same conclusion for no reason.
Posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 9:37:03
In reply to Citalopram pharmacology - Mitch, posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 5:21:03
> 'Celexa' 20mg is 10mg s-isomer and 10 mg r-isomer. The r-isomer is effectively inert as an SSRI or anything else. Celexa only works because of the 10mg s-isomer in it. 'Lexapro' is the 10mg s-isomer on its own. It's pretty hard and expensive to produce separately, and it's a funny thing to do when the r-isomer has virtually no pharmacological action at all.
>
> Lexapro 10mg is Celexa 20mg with 10 mg of an inert substance expensively removed.
<from other post>
We know it doesn't affect the pharmacokinetics of s-citalopram and we know that it has about 1/30th the affinity for the serotonin reuptake transporter of s-citalopram so it can't be competing at the binding site.
Thanks for those added tidbits of information! I knew that r-citalopram had less affinity for the serotonin reuptake transporter, but not 1/30th... Then, the only thing left to consider is the notion of r-citalopram *causing* side-effects (commonly associated with SSRI's) with little affinity for the serotonin reuptake transporter.Mitch
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 11:16:11
In reply to Citalopram pharmacology - Mitch, posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 5:21:03
> 'Celexa' 20mg is 10mg s-isomer and 10 mg r-isomer. The r-isomer is effectively inert as an SSRI or anything else. Celexa only works because of the 10mg s-isomer in it. 'Lexapro' is the 10mg s-isomer on its own. It's pretty hard and expensive to produce separately, and it's a funny thing to do when the r-isomer has virtually no pharmacological action at all.
>
> Lexapro 10mg is Celexa 20mg with 10 mg of an inert substance expensively removed.*** i'm afraid your wrong...if you look at the studies, you'll see that 10mg Lex is 40mg of Celexa, not 20mg....It is not hard, but a new technology that has allowed the separation of the 2 isomers, and it is not that expensive...in fact Lexapro will be less than Celexa...Dr Dave...where do you get your info?
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 11:23:58
In reply to Re: How do you act on that information?, posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 5:31:12
> I am a practicing psychiatrist and I prescribe Celexa widely. I have a responsibility not to prescribe everything that is claimed to be new and improved until I have some decent scientific information to justify changing from using drugs that I am familiar with.
>
> It is true that Zoloft is more effective than Paxil for some people (as an example), and we don't know why, but we can fairly safely say that it is because they are different drugs which work slightly differently. My puzzlement about claims that Lexapro works better than Celexa are founded on the fact that the active element is the exact same molecule, atom for atom.
>
> The financial issue is relevant as there will always be some limit on the funds available for treating mental disorder. I think that as much benefit should be obtained from those resources as possible. I don't think we can afford to waste money. Paying significantly more for a drug on the basis that the manufacturers think it is better is not justifiable unless there is decent evidence to back that claim up. To date that evidence does not exist.**** I agree that decisions should be based on scientific evidence, and also what reality shows in your pracitice. Lexapro is more than just 1/2 of Celexa, in the studies, it is shown that the r-citalopram was actually inhibiting the s-citalopram from its full potential. As far as cost...Lexapro (a new drug) will be less than Celexa....who told you otherwise? (Lexapro competitors?) There are several studies out that show evidence supporting all the claims you say dont exist..have you read them? Do you know them? I can get them for you if you like so you can make a more "informed" decision.
Posted by Anyuser on August 20, 2002, at 11:31:53
In reply to Re: Dr, where do you get that information? » dr. dave, posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 11:23:58
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 11:38:30
In reply to Lexapro still isn't different - pharmrep, posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 5:48:24
> I'm sure you believe Lexapro is different, pharmrep, but can't you see that you might not be in a position to make the most balanced of judgements on the evidence? It is not really convincing to try to persuade people it is different just by insisting that it is.
>
> Turning to the isomer science, why are there no plausible theories at all as to how removing r-citalopram could increase speed of onset and efficacy? We know it doesn't affect the pharmacokinetics of s-citalopram and we know that it has about 1/30th the affinity for the serotonin reuptake transporter of s-citalopram so it can't be competing at the binding site. It really is inert. Lundbeck, who developed the drug, still had no theory to back up the claim that r-citalopram impedes s-citalopram's activity when I last spoke to them. Does Forrest?
>
> I would be more than happy to discuss the deficiencies in the published papers if you wish. Independent reviews of the evidence wouldn't both come to the same conclusion for no reason.*** Yes, and I've gone through credibilty before here. I find it interesting...all the opinions that are subjectively based. If I see statements that are completely one-sided...I like to jump in. Especially ones I have facts on. I have plenty of studies to back the differences up...do you? The 9 done all show statistically significant differences, so what are you referring to when you make your statements. (Did you participate in "early studies?") I am guessing you havent read the studies... primarily because you insist there is no pharmacokinetics in r-citalopram. Yes is does not help in the treatment of depression, but it definitely was inhibiting s-citalopram (ie...r attaches to histomine receptors sites which can cause somnolence). And Lundbeck just spoke to Forest in late June in Atlanta (I was there) about the "US" studies and how more was uncovered than in the European studies. Cool, I would love to chat with you...what city are you in?
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 11:42:31
In reply to Re: Citalopram pharmacology -Dr. Dave, posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 9:37:03
NO.....10mg Lex is 40mg of Celexa...trust me.
Posted by Anyuser on August 20, 2002, at 12:17:02
In reply to Re: Citalopram pharmacology -Dr. Dave » Ritch, posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 11:42:31
The prescribing info recommends 10mg, period, including elderly patients and those with impaired livers or kidneys. It is interesting to note that the prescribing info says there seems to be no benefit to 20mg over 10mg.
I'm curious, why even bother to manufacturer 5mg pills? The 10 mg pills are scored. Has any testing been done on the 5mg dose?
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 20, 2002, at 13:00:21
In reply to Re: Citalopram pharmacology -Dr. Dave » Ritch, posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 11:42:31
I am reposting this because even though I haven't picked out anything in your posts that cross any lines you are by definition biased. If your not here for help with a mental disorder it's kind of silly that your here at all. Yes for many, Lexapro will work as an antidepressant, and for some it will not, and other still will have problems with it entirely.. To think it will be light years ahead of anything currently available is preposterous. Everyone is different and your studies with 10,000 patients by doctors who are paid in grants and whose funding has been "underwritten in educational disguise" have consistently failed to elucidate the whole picture on any of these meds when used on a given individual. I would be a no see doc if I was one. Donuts for my office staff and samples for my patients, otherwise... well anyways my post below is what Forest's real goal is. If a few suffering people can benefit than great.
Citalopram is the #1 most used AD in the world
Forest has the marketing rights to Citalopram in the US under Celexa, but not in Europe where it actually is the number 1 prescribed antidepressant. In Europe and all other non-us companies, citalopram is owned by various other companies.
Forest will have full international rights to Lexapro and will launch a campaign to convert the entire world on Citalopram (Celexa and other names) to the new improved Leaxapro. Much more marketshare and money.
Believe me when I tell you that there is not a single person in the pharmaceutical industry who cares about you and your depression as much as they care about you and your money. Their motivations are always 100% based on bottom line revenue. Don't ever think for a second they have any other motivation whatsoever. Altruism is not welcome in this industry. Thats what Church on Sunday is for...
Scott
Posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 13:10:54
In reply to Re: Citalopram pharmacology -Dr. Dave » Ritch, posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 11:42:31
> NO.....10mg Lex is 40mg of Celexa...trust me.
PharmRep,
I wished somebody would do receptor affinity profiling for r- and s- citalopram separately. If the r- isomer has little affinity for the serotonin reuptake transporter, it (the r-isomer) possibly could have an increased affinity for other receptors involved with side effects. I did find it interesting in the micromedex link posted a while ago that the half-life of s-citalopram is about 22 hrs and that the half-life of s+r-citalopram is about 35 hrs. (If that is inaccurate-please somebody correct me).
thanks,Mitch
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 14:40:38
In reply to Question re dose » pharmrep, posted by Anyuser on August 20, 2002, at 12:17:02
> The prescribing info recommends 10mg, period, including elderly patients and those with impaired livers or kidneys. It is interesting to note that the prescribing info says there seems to be no benefit to 20mg over 10mg.
>
> I'm curious, why even bother to manufacturer 5mg pills? The 10 mg pills are scored. Has any testing been done on the 5mg dose?no...not yet...10 is the starting and maintenance dose...20 if 10 looks a little "light." What do you mean 20mg no benefit? where did you read this?
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 14:52:48
In reply to Hey Pharm-rep, posted by Mr.Scott on August 20, 2002, at 13:00:21
> I am reposting this because even though I haven't picked out anything in your posts that cross any lines you are by definition biased. If your not here for help with a mental disorder it's kind of silly that your here at all. Yes for many, Lexapro will work as an antidepressant, and for some it will not, and other still will have problems with it entirely.. To think it will be light years ahead of anything currently available is preposterous. Everyone is different and your studies with 10,000 patients by doctors who are paid in grants and whose funding has been "underwritten in educational disguise" have consistently failed to elucidate the whole picture on any of these meds when used on a given individual. I would be a no see doc if I was one. Donuts for my office staff and samples for my patients, otherwise... well anyways my post below is what Forest's real goal is. If a few suffering people can benefit than great.
>
> Citalopram is the #1 most used AD in the world
>
> Forest has the marketing rights to Citalopram in the US under Celexa, but not in Europe where it actually is the number 1 prescribed antidepressant. In Europe and all other non-us companies, citalopram is owned by various other companies.
>
> Forest will have full international rights to Lexapro and will launch a campaign to convert the entire world on Citalopram (Celexa and other names) to the new improved Leaxapro. Much more marketshare and money.
>
> Believe me when I tell you that there is not a single person in the pharmaceutical industry who cares about you and your depression as much as they care about you and your money. Their motivations are always 100% based on bottom line revenue. Don't ever think for a second they have any other motivation whatsoever. Altruism is not welcome in this industry. Thats what Church on Sunday is for...
>
> Scott
> *** Sorry you feel that way...I am only trying to correct incorrect info givin, and add what I can...Why to you dislike Forest...you certainly dont know Howard Soloman and his story (re: his son). And Forest is definitely not promoting the switching of anybody who's med is working. If a patient is not getting what they want from their med...Lexapro might help. But there is no benefit to the company for changing from Celexa to Lexapro, so why say that? Does it make sense for a company to offer a new/unproved product to the public 3 yrs before the old one expires, or to offer it at a lesser price. I know it might be hard to believe, but Forest actually does have the patients best interests in mind, that is why Lexapro is being offered...it is a better product.
Posted by Anyuser on August 20, 2002, at 14:57:57
In reply to Re: Question re dose, posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 14:40:38
From Lexapro.com prescribing info: http://www.lexapro.com/prescribing_information/lexapro_pi.pdf, which says, "The recommended dose of Lexapro is 10mg once daily. A fixed dose trial of Lexapro demonstrated the effectiveness of both 10mg and 20mg of Lexapro, but failed to demonstrate a greater benefit of 20mg over 10mg."
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 15:13:03
In reply to Re: Citalopram pharmacology -Dr. Dave » pharmrep, posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 13:10:54
> > NO.....10mg Lex is 40mg of Celexa...trust me.
>
> PharmRep,
>
> I wished somebody would do receptor affinity profiling for r- and s- citalopram separately. If the r- isomer has little affinity for the serotonin reuptake transporter, it (the r-isomer) possibly could have an increased affinity for other receptors involved with side effects. I did find it interesting in the micromedex link posted a while ago that the half-life of s-citalopram is about 22 hrs and that the half-life of s+r-citalopram is about 35 hrs. (If that is inaccurate-please somebody correct me).
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Mitch** hi Mitch...look this one up...it is a study that compares r-citalopram, s-citalopram and celexa (which is both combined). This is proof that Lexapro is more than just 1/2 of Celexa.
c. Sanchez, H. Loft, SA Montgomery Pharmacol Toxicol May 2001; 88(5): 282-286
PS Celexa half-life is 35hrs...Lexapro has a range of 27-32.
Posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 15:22:46
In reply to Re: Question re dose » pharmrep, posted by Anyuser on August 20, 2002, at 14:57:57
The statement '10mg Lex is 40mg Celexa' doesn't make any sense. Let's get down to the science here - '10mg lex' is 10mg of s-citalopram. '40mg Celexa' is 20mg s-citalopram plus 20mg r-citalopram. That's different. A study has been presented claiming 10mg Lexapro is as effective as 40mg Celexa - but Jack Gorman in his meta-analysis of the research states that this study was too small to demonstrate differences in efficacy. The result of one small trial is not necessarily the complete and absolute truth.
Is the separation expensive? A slow-moving bed plant required to separate stereoisomers costs upward of $5 million. To me, that's expensive.
Where do I get my info? From the published studies, which I have looked through thoroughly, and from a knowledge of pharmacology from studying at Cambridge University.
The studies SUGGEST certain things, but are very very far from demonstrating them conclusively. Statistical significance of difference is inconsistent across the studies. Lexapro will certainly not be cheaper than generic citalopram which is available in Europe to the best of my knowledge.
Although r-citalopram has some affinity to histamine (not 'histomine') receptors this does not mean it is 'inhibiting s-citalopram'. You cannot inhibit a molecule, you can only inhibit a process - which process involving s-citalopram is the r-citalopram/histamine receptor interaction inhibiting?
The whole marketing of this drug seems to be based on sloppy science. I have no problem with Celexa, I prescribe it all over the place, but raising desparate people's hopes with woolly and wishful thinking I object to.
I would be happy to discuss the shortcomings of any particular study on escitalopram that is publically available if we want to get into the science of it.
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 15:38:52
In reply to Re: Question re dose » pharmrep, posted by Anyuser on August 20, 2002, at 14:57:57
Good observation. In week 7 (of 8wk study) 20mg which had showed an edge over 10mg wks 1-6, became = to 10mg. This was due to the tolerabilty of 20 being slighty less than 10, and a few patients dropped out. (this is called last observation carried forward.) All doctors know about this and take LOCF stats in consideration because that is what a real practice is like...if people stop taking their med due to tolerance issues, the "scores" will reflect that. Anyway, to make a long story short(er)...20mg is more effective than 10mg. You can get the full study the FDA had and see for yourself. The graph is clear. (William Burke of Univ. of Nebraska did the study)
Posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 15:58:42
In reply to Citalopram pharmacology, posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 15:22:46
> The statement '10mg Lex is 40mg Celexa' doesn't make any sense. Let's get down to the science here - '10mg lex' is 10mg of s-citalopram. '40mg Celexa' is 20mg s-citalopram plus 20mg r-citalopram. That's different. A study has been presented claiming 10mg Lexapro is as effective as 40mg Celexa - but Jack Gorman in his meta-analysis of the research states that this study was too small to demonstrate differences in efficacy. The result of one small trial is not necessarily the complete and absolute truth.
>
> Is the separation expensive? A slow-moving bed plant required to separate stereoisomers costs upward of $5 million. To me, that's expensive.
>
> Where do I get my info? From the published studies, which I have looked through thoroughly, and from a knowledge of pharmacology from studying at Cambridge University.
>
> The studies SUGGEST certain things, but are very very far from demonstrating them conclusively. Statistical significance of difference is inconsistent across the studies. Lexapro will certainly not be cheaper than generic citalopram which is available in Europe to the best of my knowledge.
>
> Although r-citalopram has some affinity to histamine (not 'histomine') receptors this does not mean it is 'inhibiting s-citalopram'. You cannot inhibit a molecule, you can only inhibit a process - which process involving s-citalopram is the r-citalopram/histamine receptor interaction inhibiting?
>
> The whole marketing of this drug seems to be based on sloppy science. I have no problem with Celexa, I prescribe it all over the place, but raising desparate people's hopes with woolly and wishful thinking I object to.
>
> I would be happy to discuss the shortcomings of any particular study on escitalopram that is publically available if we want to get into the science of it.***I agree that the few studies out hardly represent the end-all-be-all of facts, but the 9 out now look promising. Pardon my appreviating...most of my posts I receive are like this, so I do it too. I met Dr. Gorman in June...he spoke for 1 hour and didnt hesitate on the research and efficacy findings. He said Lexapro has greater efficacy. As far as expense of isolating isomers...I dont know what the cost are to Forest...I only know that Lexapro will be less expensive to the patients than Celexa....and there is no generic for Celexa until late 2005 here or Europe. I may have oversimplified my histamine statement, but dont kill me for a typing error. (and it's Forest...not "Forrest")
Forest hasn't even begun any marketing yet, only a few studies are out to show efficacy, side-effect profile, drug to drug interactions, and tolerablity.... The FDA actually encourages isomer science. What dont you like? I would like to cover the studies with you since you have seen them....typing is too hard...what city are you in?
Posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 16:02:00
In reply to Re: Citalopram pharmacology -Dr. Dave » pharmrep, posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 13:10:54
A study HAS been done on receptor affinity profiling for r- and s-citalopram separately. It is at http://www.cipralex.ch/pdf/poster/sobp_500.pdf
Note that the receptor affinities of r-citalopram are described as 'weak'.
I am reading that Lexapro doesn't cause somnolence - how does this fit with the fact that when study results have been combined, 1.9% of those on placebo complained of somnolence and 6% of those on Lexapro did? This is over three times as common. This gives you an idea of how the facts are being played around with here.
> > NO.....10mg Lex is 40mg of Celexa...trust me.
>
> PharmRep,
>
> I wished somebody would do receptor affinity profiling for r- and s- citalopram separately. If the r- isomer has little affinity for the serotonin reuptake transporter, it (the r-isomer) possibly could have an increased affinity for other receptors involved with side effects. I did find it interesting in the micromedex link posted a while ago that the half-life of s-citalopram is about 22 hrs and that the half-life of s+r-citalopram is about 35 hrs. (If that is inaccurate-please somebody correct me).
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Mitch
Posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 16:25:16
In reply to where's the love? » dr. dave, posted by pharmrep on August 20, 2002, at 15:58:42
OK, sorry about being snitty about spelling, and I stand corrected on 'Forest'.
I think the Gorman paper is weak. Jack Gorman is paid by Forest. He is also paid by Lundbeck. His paper has only managed to get published in a paper he edits himself. He is not independent of the significant financial pressures surrounding this issue.
Generic citalopram is already available in Europe from what I gather, having been launched in Israel earlier this year.
What city am I in? I'm in a hospital in a little village in the mountains of Wales, at least an hour from anything resembling a city!
> > The statement '10mg Lex is 40mg Celexa' doesn't make any sense. Let's get down to the science here - '10mg lex' is 10mg of s-citalopram. '40mg Celexa' is 20mg s-citalopram plus 20mg r-citalopram. That's different. A study has been presented claiming 10mg Lexapro is as effective as 40mg Celexa - but Jack Gorman in his meta-analysis of the research states that this study was too small to demonstrate differences in efficacy. The result of one small trial is not necessarily the complete and absolute truth.
> >
> > Is the separation expensive? A slow-moving bed plant required to separate stereoisomers costs upward of $5 million. To me, that's expensive.
> >
> > Where do I get my info? From the published studies, which I have looked through thoroughly, and from a knowledge of pharmacology from studying at Cambridge University.
> >
> > The studies SUGGEST certain things, but are very very far from demonstrating them conclusively. Statistical significance of difference is inconsistent across the studies. Lexapro will certainly not be cheaper than generic citalopram which is available in Europe to the best of my knowledge.
> >
> > Although r-citalopram has some affinity to histamine (not 'histomine') receptors this does not mean it is 'inhibiting s-citalopram'. You cannot inhibit a molecule, you can only inhibit a process - which process involving s-citalopram is the r-citalopram/histamine receptor interaction inhibiting?
> >
> > The whole marketing of this drug seems to be based on sloppy science. I have no problem with Celexa, I prescribe it all over the place, but raising desparate people's hopes with woolly and wishful thinking I object to.
> >
> > I would be happy to discuss the shortcomings of any particular study on escitalopram that is publically available if we want to get into the science of it.
>
> ***I agree that the few studies out hardly represent the end-all-be-all of facts, but the 9 out now look promising. Pardon my appreviating...most of my posts I receive are like this, so I do it too. I met Dr. Gorman in June...he spoke for 1 hour and didnt hesitate on the research and efficacy findings. He said Lexapro has greater efficacy. As far as expense of isolating isomers...I dont know what the cost are to Forest...I only know that Lexapro will be less expensive to the patients than Celexa....and there is no generic for Celexa until late 2005 here or Europe. I may have oversimplified my histamine statement, but dont kill me for a typing error. (and it's Forest...not "Forrest")
> Forest hasn't even begun any marketing yet, only a few studies are out to show efficacy, side-effect profile, drug to drug interactions, and tolerablity.... The FDA actually encourages isomer science. What dont you like? I would like to cover the studies with you since you have seen them....typing is too hard...what city are you in?
Posted by Anyuser on August 20, 2002, at 16:37:24
In reply to Receptor affinity profiles of s- and r-citalopram, posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 16:02:00
A recurring theme on this board is how to obtain reliable information about ADs. As among (1) scientific papers, both pre- and post- governmental approval, (2) clinical experience reported by practitioners, and (3) individual experiences, I would value (2) over (1) and (3). With respect to escitalopram, in the US there is no clinical experience and no individual experience. We patients, at the moment, are limited to the scientific papers. Most knowledgeable patients, and there are many on this board, know that drug applications are written by lawyers for lawyers. The prescribing information for Celexa, for example, is false and misleading with respect to the incidence of sexual side effects. I think a sensible attitude toward escitalopram is to be hopeful but sceptical. It might be enough of an improvement in reducing side effects to keep some number of patients on the drug longer.
You, on the other hand, as a practicing physician in the UK, have access not only to the scientific papers but also to the individual experience of Cipralex users. Moreover, you can get in the game and test the veracity of the scientific papers and the marketing raps by prescribing Cipralex. You say you prescribe Cipramil. You must have patients that suffer sexual side effects. Haven't any of such patients asked you to prescribe Cipralex instead? Let's say you have a patient who's been taking 40mgs of Cipramil and can't have an orgasm and tells you she is going off the drug. Why wouldn't you test Lundbeck's rap by writing a scrip for 10mgs of Cipralex and seeing how it worked for your patient? You don't have to rely on the papers, you can generate your own clinical experience. Why wouldn't you do so?
I'm not arguing the merits of escitalopram here. I don't know the truth. I'll be interested to hear what people say after they try it. You have a chance to try it on your patients and (apparently) choose not to, apparently in reliance meta-surveys. Why? I value your opinion now, but I think your opinion would carry even more weight if you were to say that you've tried Cipralex on your patients and they tell you it's better/worse/the same compared to Cipramil.
Posted by IsoM on August 20, 2002, at 16:51:15
In reply to Re: where's the love?, posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 16:25:16
It's already available in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, Iceland, Israel, the Czech Republic & Australia.
(from http://www.lundbeck.com/investor/Reportsandpresentations/InterimReports/Interim_report_for_the_first_quarter_of_2002.pdf)Seropram was the name that citapolpram was marketed under in Austria, France, Greece, Italy & Spain. It seems that the patent for each name runs out at slightly different times in different countries.
Posted by Dinah on August 20, 2002, at 17:52:04
In reply to Re: where's the love?, posted by dr. dave on August 20, 2002, at 16:25:16
Sorry to interrupt with a tangent. But I just want to say how lovely I think your area is. I don't think there's anywhere in the world I love nearly as much as the mountains of Wales.
I'm envious.
Ok, tangent over.
Very sincerely,
Dinah
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