![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 61. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:02:16
Some of you have read my previous posts about the filthy and chaotic state of my apartment, which overwhelms me, disturbs me, disgusts me, yet I haven't been able to change it.
Well, a new development. The bathroom sink tap is broken, and the cold water has a small, but perpetual and utterly annoying and shamefully wasteful, stream of running water emanating from it. When it broke I told my self I would get my apartment cleaned up so the condo guy could come fix it, because I certainly cannot let anyone see my apartment as it is. I am afraid word would get back to the owner of my unit who would evict me, and for that matter, having the condo managemnt know how I keep the place would be bad, too, because it is certainly not in keeping with the mores of the community.
Well, I got a call from the condo manager, who said that my downstairs neighbor reported hearin running water. They wanted to come check it out yesterday. I called to let them know what the running water is, that it isn't a burst pipe or anything, and could they come after the weekend, because the place is a mess and I want to clean it up. He called yesterday and said yes.
So now I have til Monday to clean up enough of this place so I don't get myself kicked out. Can I accomplish this goal? I feel a lot of pressure, which for some people is motivating and activating, but for me can send me into denial and avoidance.
In the immortal words of our beloved Charlie Brown, "Good Grief!"
Or, better yet, "AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"
Posted by Snowie on January 29, 2000, at 9:33:45
In reply to Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:02:16
I'm in almost the same predicament as you, but I NEED this motivation to clean my house. I have a house that was built in 1926 and the wiring is bad ... a fire hazard, in fact. A guy was supposed to come out to give me an estimate today, but I've managed to put him off until next week, so I'll be working faster than Samantha this next week. Also, my toilet keep running ... I've called the plumber, so when the electrician comes I'll get the plumber in at the same time. A word of advice: UNPLUG YOUR COMPUTER AND STAY OFF THE INTERNET ... at least for a while. My house used to be much more manageable, but since I've been on the internet, my house stays a mess. I need to learn to manage my internet time more wisely. That's easy to say, but hard to do.
Good luck!
Snowie
Posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:55:45
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Snowie on January 29, 2000, at 9:33:45
True. The internet has been a lifesaver for me (because of this site), but it is also addictive (this site and NyTimes Crossword Puzzle site). Before this, tho, I had other things to procrastinate with.
Posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:58:18
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:55:45
I have been bemoaning the fact that my CD player is broken and I can't play music to clean by, but just now as I was thinking about your post, snowie, it occurred to me that I can play CDs on my computer! So, I think I'll go find something lively to start attacking this mess with....
Posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2000, at 10:24:51
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:58:18
> I have been bemoaning the fact that my CD player is broken and I can't play music to clean by, but just now as I was thinking about your post, snowie, it occurred to me that I can play CDs on my computer! So, I think I'll go find something lively to start attacking this mess with....
Noa - All I can suggest is to hum to yourself in a rhythm as you go, if you computer isn't loud enough. Good luck with the shoveling (ha-ha-ha).
- Cam W.
Posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 11:46:34
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2000, at 10:24:51
Good luck with the shoveling (ha-ha-ha).
> - Cam W.I was thinking a rake would be handy!
Posted by JohnL on January 29, 2000, at 11:59:21
In reply to Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:02:16
Hi Noa. I can sure relate. I hate the pressure of having to do something when I'm in no frame of mind to tackle it. My primary symptom of anhedonia contributes to serious procrastination and I just don't get anything done unless I absolutely have no choice.
This sure isn't a fix, but you know what I would do? I would take all the mess and clutter, stash it in a big pile in a corner, cover it all with a blanket or sheet, run a quick vacuum over the carpet and invite the plumber in. They don't need to know the multiple months of clutter piled under that sheet. Just clean up the room they'll be working in. Save the rest for later....much later, right? :) JohnL
Posted by torchgrl on January 30, 2000, at 0:18:55
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by JohnL on January 29, 2000, at 11:59:21
Noa,
Well, despite my brief one-room cleaning success about a month ago, I'm still in the same position as you are now. Of course, now in addition to *my* bathroom fixing issues, my dad has announced he's coming to visit over President's Day weekend, so I have a definite deadline looming as well. I'll be thinking of you as I attempt to do some cleaning/shoveling myself tomorrow!
Posted by Renee N on January 30, 2000, at 0:46:43
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by torchgrl on January 30, 2000, at 0:18:55
> Noa,
> Well, despite my brief one-room cleaning success about a month ago, I'm still in the same position as you are now. Of course, now in addition to *my* bathroom fixing issues, my dad has announced he's coming to visit over President's Day weekend, so I have a definite deadline looming as well. I'll be thinking of you as I attempt to do some cleaning/shoveling myself tomorrow!If you answer this post, we'll know you're still not cleaniing. The internet is watching... I guess I shouldn't joke like that just in case we have any paranoid people here.
For many years I lived across the country from my in-laws. Now that we live less than two hours away, I've told her to please not come unannounced. She's told people abput this in a disgusted tone of voice while I was present, but she does adhere to the rule.. I know I am being silly. I tell what a slob I am, but never want her to see it. She is almost clean to a fault. Her house is her pride and joy. I'm comfortable at home, but don't want to spend all my time away from work cooking and cleaning. The last time she was coming, I cleaned like crazy and had it looking good, although I'm sure she could have found fault with dog nose prints on the sliding door, some dust, etc. Well, the next day my father-in-law was coming over to help my husband with some handy man stuff. I didn't know she was coming ,too! The night before, after we had eaten some pies from the freezer,(Shame on me. I didn't make them from scratch!)which turned out bad. (Gee, I can't even manage to heat up things Mrs. Smith made.), after my in-laws left, my husband and I decided to take a walk and let the dishes sit. When we came home we were tired and went to bed. In the morning I had to rush off to doo some volunteer work at my son's school. When I got home my mopther in law was there, and so were our pie plates. One even had a big chunk of pie still sitting on it...So much for trying to fool her.
Posted by Elizabeth on January 30, 2000, at 8:57:18
In reply to Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:02:16
> So now I have til Monday to clean up enough of this place so I don't get myself kicked out. Can I accomplish this goal? I feel a lot of pressure, which for some people is motivating and activating, but for me can send me into denial and avoidance.
Oh man, this really hit home for me. I freeze up when I'm under pressure, a lot of times (though deadlines can be helpful, much as I hate to admit it).
> In the immortal words of our beloved Charlie Brown, "Good Grief!"
>
> Or, better yet, "AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"I like the latter.
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 12:31:40
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Elizabeth on January 30, 2000, at 8:57:18
Still have done NOTHING.
And, yes. I am sure you have seen me posting when I should have been cleaning......
Posted by JohnB on January 30, 2000, at 13:40:29
In reply to Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:02:16
Possible solution? (1)Buy for more time. (2) Call in a plumber to fix it. (3) Report that "It's been fixed".
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 15:47:16
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by JohnB on January 30, 2000, at 13:40:29
News Flash: I managed to work for 8 tracks of my Nanci Griffith "Storms" CD, which translates, I guess to about 20-15 minutes or so. There is actually a bit of floor showing now! Dirty floor, but floor. I am taking a break, and *hopefully* will go for another couple of rounds. It looks like we might have another snow day tomorrow, which buys me an extra day, cuz the super will be too busy with sidewalks and all to come look at my faucet.
Posted by torchgrl on January 30, 2000, at 21:23:18
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 15:47:16
You're one up on me--I didn't even get out of bed until about 4 in the afternoon. I'm taking Celexa these days, and seem to have not only have fallen into the utter apathy trap, but my anhedonia and inability to make decisions seem almost worse... Half the reason I didn't get up is that I couldn't decide what to do if I did get out of bed, so I just watched TV until I realised that I had a video that needed to be returned. So much for cleaning--wishing you luck, Noa! At least I still have some time before my dad comes...
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 21:46:02
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by torchgrl on January 30, 2000, at 21:23:18
What you describe is so many of my weekend days over the past few years. I argue with myself to get up, shower, and dress, and then I ask myself, "what for?".
I don't actually sleep that much anymore, so I am out of bed, but there is a lot of TV watching, lolling on the couch, perusing the newspaper (too distracted to read anything in depth, tho), and sitting at the computer to play games or go online.
Even tho I did get out this morning (I made myself go to the store before the snow/ice storm), and I did do a bit of cleaning (a small dent in the huge landfill that is the interior of my apartment), I am still in my pj's and have been continuosly since Friday night. I simply put a trenchcoat over my pj's to go to the store. Needless to say, I haven't bathed, either. Of course, it doesn't matter much, since there is no sweating to be done here, because this place is freezing. My heat is not working up to par, but of course, I haven't had anyone come fix it, because, uh, well, you know the story...
Lucky me, tomorrow is another day in. School is closed due to the storm.
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 21:47:14
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 21:46:02
Torch, I meant to ask, do you attribute your lethargy to the Celexa, to your depression, or what?
Is your mood low, too? Or is it just numbness?
Posted by torchgrl on January 31, 2000, at 1:19:40
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 21:47:14
> Torch, I meant to ask, do you attribute your lethargy to the Celexa, to your depression, or what?
>
> Is your mood low, too? Or is it just numbness?Well, the odd thing (to me) about Celexa is that I noticed an effect within a couple of DAYS of starting at 10 mg (now I've been on 20 mg/day for nearly a week). I wouldn't call the feeling "contendedness"...and "apathy" has negative connotations for me, but it's somewhere in there. No mood. Not exactly happy, not unhappy, not motivated to do anything--I suppose that's why it's so difficult to make decisions (like it wasn't before!ha!); I just don't care one way or the other. Good, in that I'm not lying around stressing about all the things I'm not doing, but bad in that I'm still not doing them, either. I still retain the need to do things, but it's a tiny little, barely audible voice that says "you've just wasted another weekend of your life" etc, and still doesn't supercede the "whatever..." feeling. (I'm going to have to make myself pretend to care about the mess around here soon!) So the depression has lifted, but so has everything else! I have to remind myself to be disconcerted, but I know it's not a good thing--I'm just hoping this is temporary.
It would be more tolerable if the anhedonia were gone as well, but it's not. I went out with coworkers after work on Friday, only because I couldn't decide if I wanted to go or not and so I just went because everyone was going, and stood around for about an hour, and it was fine, but I wouldn't say I had fun or enjoyed it. It was there, I was there, and then I left. Now there's a life! I mean, I'm not crying at commercials anymore, but I think I'd be hard pressed to cry if my whole family died right now. Where to draw the line... Like I said, I'm hoping this is short-lived, because my life isn't going ANYWHERE like this, and I can't even be bothered to feel particularly upset about it...
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 6:25:27
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by torchgrl on January 31, 2000, at 1:19:40
Torchgirl, I have had similar experiences. For me, it is that the tortured feelings go away, but I am still not interested in stuff, still not motivated, etc. I think to a certain extent, it is a process, a matter of time. But also, there is work to do in therapy. I also am aware of my intense anxiety and avoidance thereof, about investing any interest or energy or hope in my life. I also think I have been in this non-existence of a life for so long that I have forgotten how to make life happen. But it is the anxiety that is most operative, I think. I am terrified of hoping things will improve because I feel certain deep down inside that I will just relapse into a major depression again. Why bother?
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 9:53:42
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 6:25:27
Ok, I hope you guys dont get turned off by the tediousness of my play-by-play, but logging in helps me get the job done.
Today is another snow day, a day of reprieve. Yesterday I got 25 minutes worth of cleaning done, producing two large trash bags that I discarded outside for trash pick up this morning. It also produced two huge recycling bags of plastic and glass bottles, and two bags of newspapers, which will all go out tomorrow for pick up. There are only like a gazillion more newspapers. Oh well.
I coulda shoulda done more, but kept avoiding, which as you know, I am very good at.
So now it is another day.
My plan right now: Tackle the bathroom. Afterall, that is where the super will spend the most time, and it is grossness exemplified.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Posted by Cass on January 31, 2000, at 12:05:49
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 6:25:27
> Torchgirl, I have had similar experiences. For me, it is that the tortured feelings go away, but I am still not interested in stuff, still not motivated, etc. I think to a certain extent, it is a process, a matter of time. But also, there is work to do in therapy. I also am aware of my intense anxiety and avoidance thereof, about investing any interest or energy or hope in my life. I also think I have been in this non-existence of a life for so long that I have forgotten how to make life happen. But it is the anxiety that is most operative, I think. I am terrified of hoping things will improve because I feel certain deep down inside that I will just relapse into a major depression again. Why bother?
Noa, Sometimes when you write a post, it seems like you are describing me. I notice that others have said the same thing. I appreciate your posts. They make me feel less alone.
Cass
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 12:09:10
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 9:53:42
> Ok, so now I am answering my own posts. Oh well.
I just finished part of the bathroom. Shoveled a ton of trash off the floor, tried to separate out laundry from trash (I might have lost a few items there), and scrubbed the sink and the area around it.
As I was thus engaged, my thoughts floated around about how the hell I ever let it get this bad. I think I might have a bad case of "depressed perfectionism." I mean, that I am a bit obsessive about wanting it to be perfectly clean, but feel so overwhelmed and so lacking in confidence in my ability to meet my own standards, that I just give up altogether. And once it gets to be too big of a problem, well, then it IS overwhelming by anyone's standards. At that point it seems pointless to do a little cleaning, because it hardly makes a dent. It is very rigid thinking, I know.
For example, just now I was cleaning the sink. Now, mind you my goal today is to do enough cleaning not to get myself evicted. But I pulled up the blind in the bathroom window for light, and then noticed how filthy the window sill, etc. was, so I cleaned that. Ok, no big deal, not a major detour. But my MIND starts in with the obsessiveness: I notice the dirt between the screen and window, and start thinking about how if I want the windows open, I will have to clean that thoroughly. Then, I think about how dirty the screen itself must be, and imagine taking it out and bringing it outside for a scrub and hosing down. I said to myself, don't be ridiculous, there is more dirt in here than would come in because of the window being open. But my obsessive mind stirs up this anxiety anyway.
I was never really that afflicted with OCD, not overtly anyway. I don't have rituals. And I wouldn't have been characterized by people who know me as afraid of dirt. It is just a covert sort of thing my mind does and my reaction is to withdraw and give up.
This is the process that used to happen when I was a kid and had to write for school-through college, actually. I would freeze up, give up, get overwhelmed. My mind would edit words before they even reached my pen, so I couldn't write at all. (Hah! Look at me now, you can't shut me up!!) This eventually subsided after college and when I went to graduate school in my late twenties.
But the brain process is the same, I think.
Any thoughts?
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 12:12:06
In reply to Re: Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Cass on January 31, 2000, at 12:05:49
Thank you, Cass. I feel less alone knowing you can relate to these experiences, too.
Posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 12:45:03
In reply to DP's Lair--The Tedious Play By Play, posted by Noa on January 31, 2000, at 12:09:10
*** The thing to do is to throw out the concept of "cleaning"
and replace it with the concept of "dirt reduction". The notion of "cleaning" seems to treat cleanliness as an end in itself, as an absolute (viz., a moral absolute: "cleanliness is next to Godliness, et cetera). A more rational way to go about it is to conceptualize "cleaning" as a means to a given end (which you have done already: not getting evicted); the problem shifts from "How do I get the place clean?" to "How clean do I have to get the place in order to avoid eviction"? This is the concept of dirt reduction. To put it in economic terms, it means a cost-benefit analysis; calculating how much a cost in energy-expenditure in cleaning is necessary to "purchase" immunity from eviction. The idea, then, is a) NOT to get the place "clean", but to define the level of messiness at which eviction will no longer be a risk and to reduce the mess *to that level*. This way of conceptualizing the problem helps not only to avoid unnecessary effort on your part (does the plumber really care if the place is dazzling with polished brilliance?), but helps to define a more "doable" task by providing an easy way to know when you're being "over-perfectionistic". The latter amounts to no more than making more of an effort than you have to to attain a goal.-Kev
Posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 12:45:58
In reply to Update on the Depressed Person's Lair, posted by Noa on January 29, 2000, at 9:02:16
Boy can I relate to that!!! The builder of my condo (which Is 6 yrs. old) has to come back to make some changes to the heating and cooling system to bring it up to code. They left a msg on my machine to tell me when they were coming and I called and told them I needed at least 48 hours notice. Well they came the following weekend, without calling first and I played possum for 3 hours because my place was such a disaster!!!! They tried agian this weekend and I told them, not unless they have an appointment, which they didn't have. This has been going on for a month.
So I'm right there with ya girl!!
Claudea
> Some of you have read my previous posts about the filthy and chaotic state of my apartment, which overwhelms me, disturbs me, disgusts me, yet I haven't been able to change it.
>
> Well, a new development. The bathroom sink tap is broken, and the cold water has a small, but perpetual and utterly annoying and shamefully wasteful, stream of running water emanating from it. When it broke I told my self I would get my apartment cleaned up so the condo guy could come fix it, because I certainly cannot let anyone see my apartment as it is. I am afraid word would get back to the owner of my unit who would evict me, and for that matter, having the condo managemnt know how I keep the place would be bad, too, because it is certainly not in keeping with the mores of the community.
>
> Well, I got a call from the condo manager, who said that my downstairs neighbor reported hearin running water. They wanted to come check it out yesterday. I called to let them know what the running water is, that it isn't a burst pipe or anything, and could they come after the weekend, because the place is a mess and I want to clean it up. He called yesterday and said yes.
>
> So now I have til Monday to clean up enough of this place so I don't get myself kicked out. Can I accomplish this goal? I feel a lot of pressure, which for some people is motivating and activating, but for me can send me into denial and avoidance.
>
> In the immortal words of our beloved Charlie Brown, "Good Grief!"
>
> Or, better yet, "AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"
Posted by claudeah on January 31, 2000, at 12:56:09
In reply to Re: DP's Lair--The Tedious Play By Play, posted by Kev on January 31, 2000, at 12:45:03
Kev---
That sounds like lawyer or consultant talk......so which do you fess up to being???
Claudea
> *** The thing to do is to throw out the concept of "cleaning"
> and replace it with the concept of "dirt reduction". The notion of "cleaning" seems to treat cleanliness as an end in itself, as an absolute (viz., a moral absolute: "cleanliness is next to Godliness, et cetera). A more rational way to go about it is to conceptualize "cleaning" as a means to a given end (which you have done already: not getting evicted); the problem shifts from "How do I get the place clean?" to "How clean do I have to get the place in order to avoid eviction"? This is the concept of dirt reduction. To put it in economic terms, it means a cost-benefit analysis; calculating how much a cost in energy-expenditure in cleaning is necessary to "purchase" immunity from eviction. The idea, then, is a) NOT to get the place "clean", but to define the level of messiness at which eviction will no longer be a risk and to reduce the mess *to that level*. This way of conceptualizing the problem helps not only to avoid unnecessary effort on your part (does the plumber really care if the place is dazzling with polished brilliance?), but helps to define a more "doable" task by providing an easy way to know when you're being "over-perfectionistic". The latter amounts to no more than making more of an effort than you have to to attain a goal.
>
> -Kev
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.